Commenting Death

The Island of the Dead by Arnold Böcklin

Death as Physical demise
The body, as we know it, at some point (and for any given reason) demises. The ones staying behind usually throw themselves into the sea of sadness and mourn the departed ones. However, many of us celebrate the expiration of our loved ones since we believe that a new cycle of existence begins (one that is much better than the cycle spent on earth). 
Yet, sadness invades our being and gets comfortable on the fluffiness of our hearts. Why do we shed tears or feel sad? It’s certainly not for the “lucky one” who crossed over; it is rather for ourselves, for our own feeling of abandonment and temporary loneliness. 
This raises a question: is it correct for us to focus upon ourselves and pain; instead of rejoicing at the fact that the soul of the loved one is freed from the burden of matter and praying that it goes to the light?

Death as a Symbol
In symbology (needed to interpret dreams, visions and tarot [for instance]), death means change, cutting through the entangled webs of life (symbolised by Death’s scythe) and the end of a stage. And that is why it is very hard for an esoteric individual to tell a consulter whether someone will die or not (since physical death is not viewed as an end but as a continuation of the cycle of existence, subject to a change [i.e. mutation of body]).
This raises a question: being people so ego-centred how could they be informed, for self-appeasement, that a loved one would crossover; what’s the symbol of physical demise?

Death as Transformation
In each life, we are born once yet we die several times (implying several re-births) before we move on to the after-journey.
Everyday our body witnesses the demise and re-birth of each cell (for instance, when we’re healthy, our hair falls and grows each day). Whenever we get sick, we die a little and when we convalesce we are re-born to an exciting life. Each time we experience an existential vicissitude the way we deal with, and react to, life demises and then nativity to a whole new form of inhaling existence takes place. When a relationship dies, our heart tends to be born again for love and happiness. 
This being said, daily death (which can be straining and painful, in so many ways) represents an opportunity for utter transformation: our bodies mutate everyday; recovering from a disease equals a deep transformation of body, mind and soul (either positive or negative); life hurdles, fights, break-ups, heart-breaks etc, they all pose as a true path to transformation, leading thus to burning off karma (for mystics) or to atonement of some sort. 
This raises a question: if we die everyday, why then are we so afraid of what is perceived as the Ultimate Death?

Comments

  1. I have to admit that I do a little of both. I mourn for myself, that I will miss the person, but I'm also very happy for them that they get to go on to a better life. But at the same time, I'm also excited that they get to start the next "grand adventure". :)

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  2. Max, I think when an adult we love dies we feel more sorry for ourselves than anything else (we feel abandoned, lonely, the sense of longing crushes us, melancholy takes over...it's a mess). When a child dies we feel sorry for the things the tiny human didn't have the opportunity to experience, cause life can be so gorgeous! It is such a shame.
    You ask a very pertinent question; is it correct for us to be egocentric instead of thinking and celebrating the departed ones? Maybe not...but that's what we do; it goes to show how selfish we are.

    I wish I could tell you what the symbol of death is; but I can't because I know nothing of symbology nor esotericism (unfortunately).
    I had never thought of it, but yes...you are right: we do die a bit everyday. In a sense that we change everyday, we shed a skin everyday...the old stays behind and the new is generated on a daily basis (the way we think, our opinions; our positions; our demeanours; our reactions etc).
    Why are we so afraid of death? Perhaps because we fear the unknown; I don't know. Are you afraid of Death, Max?

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  3. Max:

    Your question brings to mind a saying I once heard: Everybody want go to Heaven, nobody want die.

    The fact is that nobody wants to die because of a very fundamental psychological principle. And that is the so-called "pleasure principle." There are simply too many good, fun, exciting and enjoyable things to do in life that it makes us afraid of death. It's not like a long time ago, when life was rough, toiling from sun up to sun down for scraps. Those days are over. Our days are filled with a host of fun things to do. Everything from sexual freedom to luxury cars to HD television, to worldwide travel. Ours is a wonderful life. Why on earth would anyone want to die?

    You know, when someone young dies, we rarely hear people say they have moved on to a better place. No. We say it's sad because he or she didn't have a chance to experience all the good things in life. We frame every tragedy in terms of pleasure lost. No wonder men and women are reluctant to give their lives for others. Acts of unselfish bravery are down. We are all cowards. Everybody is self centered. Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure is all anyone wants. It's hardwired into our brains. The pleasure principle drives us to social and technological advancement.

    Nowadays if we could, we'd extend our lives indefinitely. Of course, at this point we could coin another saying: Everybody want live forever. Nobody want grow old. There is certainly barrel of truth in that statement. Just turn on your television and watch any product commercial. See how many new products are designed to make us look younger, more desirable, more energetic. They tease us with the hint of immortality, if only for a day. Our entire existence is all about pleasure. Death is our worst fear.

    So my friend, if you want to die and go to a better place, to that great cherry pie in the sky, you belong in the Dark Ages, or in some rotten third world hell hole. That's where people still look to the afterlife for their salvation. Those poor souls need to believe there is something better in the next life to help them sustain their miserable, hard existence in this life. A belief in the glorious hereafter is their only pleasure, and they cling to it with every fiber of their being. They have to. The perception of future pleasure is their only salvation.

    For the rest of us, the chosen few, the questionably civilized, the beautiful people, we like to spend our Sunday afternoons, not in church begging the Lord to save us from the tortures of Hell, but in our comfortable homes sipping ice-cold Cool Aid, and watching the Wimbledon tennis tournament on our 55-inch HD televisions. We love our lives, and we have absolutely no thoughts of dying, or of the hereafter. Understand, it's not the hereafter in itself that we fear so much, it may be a wonderful place. Who knows? It's that we have to die to get there that bothers us. You know what they say: Everybody want go to Heaven. Nobody want die.

    Max, just my two cents.

    Happy trails.

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  4. Oh, sweet Max!

    Between you and me, the thing was:

    a) We didn't go to Viena for that cup of hot coffee and chocolate cake in December.
    b) I haven't done everything I wanted to, let alone my baby girl.
    c) She's not leaving a piece of her in this galaxy, so to whom am I going to look at to see her all over again?

    Well, sweet heart, in my case it was really a sense of unachievement :)!

    I love you,
    Mum.

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  5. Hey D!

    :D

    "I have to admit that I do a little of both. I mourn for myself, that I will miss the person, but I'm also very happy for them that they get to go on to a better life. But at the same time, I'm also excited that they get to start the next "grand adventure". :)"

    Thank you for your honesty *bowing*. "next grand adventure"...I totally hear you :)!

    D, thank you so much for having shared your thoughts on this theme :D.

    Cheers

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  6. Hi Ana :D!

    "I think when an adult we love dies we feel more sorry for ourselves than anything else (we feel abandoned, lonely, the sense of longing crushes us, melancholy takes over...it's a mess). When a child dies we feel sorry for the things the tiny human didn't have the opportunity to experience, cause life can be so gorgeous! It is such a shame."

    I hear you.

    "You ask a very pertinent question; is it correct for us to be egocentric instead of thinking and celebrating the departed ones? Maybe not...but that's what we do; it goes to show how selfish we are."

    You are in agreement with Swu, then...

    "Why are we so afraid of death? Perhaps because we fear the unknown; I don't know. Are you afraid of Death, Max?"

    Thanks for your honesty, I appreciate it *bowing*. Am I afraid of death? No, not really. To me Death is another chapter of Life; if I have to go I go (I find life a blessing and I adore being in this world however I don't cling to existence).

    Ana, thank you ever so much for your comment, delightful :D.

    Cheers

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  7. Hi Swu :D!

    "Your question brings to mind a saying I once heard: Everybody want go to Heaven, nobody want die."

    LOL it is a good saying.

    "The fact is that nobody wants to die because of a very fundamental psychological principle. And that is the so-called "pleasure principle." (...) Everything from sexual freedom to luxury cars to HD television, to worldwide travel. Ours is a wonderful life. Why on earth would anyone want to die?"

    You got a point. The fear of Death may be based on egocentrism and pleasure, at least for most.

    "You know, when someone young dies, we rarely hear people say they have moved on to a better place. No. We say it's sad because he or she didn't have a chance to experience all the good things in life. We frame every tragedy in terms of pleasure lost."

    Indeed. Here you are in agreement with Ana.

    "No wonder men and women are reluctant to give their lives for others. Acts of unselfish bravery are down. We are all cowards. Everybody is self centered. Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure is all anyone wants. It's hardwired into our brains. The pleasure principle drives us to social and technological advancement."

    Touché! That is where I was getting at with this article: we are selfish and cowards before death.

    "Nowadays if we could, we'd extend our lives indefinitely. Of course, at this point we could coin another saying: Everybody want live forever. Nobody want grow old. There is certainly barrel of truth in that statement."

    A sad truth, but nevertheless true.
    Would you like to live forever, Swu?

    "We love our lives, and we have absolutely no thoughts of dying, or of the hereafter. Understand, it's not the hereafter in itself that we fear so much, it may be a wonderful place. Who knows? It's that we have to die to get there that bothers us. You know what they say: Everybody want go to Heaven. Nobody want die."

    LOL I think that everybody is beautiful and questionable (at times) despite their going to the church on Sunday (or the temple on Saturday, or the Mosque on Friday and etc) or not. Life is beautiful and we should feel blessed for being here; however it is also important to think about all (and I stress the word "all") aspects of Existence. Plus, it stimulates the mind, decreasing thus the dangers of Alzheimer (according to Dr Oz).

    Swu, outstanding comment for which I thank you ever so much :D.

    Cheers

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  8. Hi Mum :D!

    "Well, sweet heart, in my case it was really a sense of unachievement :)!"

    I understand what you mean :).

    Mum, thank you so much for sharing your point of view on this. It was a sweet and endearing comment :D.

    I love you too!

    Cheers

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  9. My late Father-in-Law looked forward to going where he always dreamed of going, Heaven. He got his wish at around 86. He claimed he was one of the biggest sinners in the world! Far from it. But he was from the old school of thinking in that almost everything was a sin.

    Well then, I know who I'll be seeing when I kick the bucket, and it won't be St Peter!

    Yes, people grieved for him but most were comforted by the fact he had expressed that it was his time well before his departure.

    During my teens I became hardened to death due to my work-life experiences and this has continued up until this day. Mores the pity!

    And now that my parents are getting on I fear this lack of emotion when dealing with death will carry on when they pass on. God help me!

    I have seen so many pass on, both in sleep, disease, accidents, violence, expected and unexpected, young and old; there's nothing much I haven't seen, and that is my curse.

    I am a non-practising Catholic, who believes in God one day and not the next, and who prays to the almighty for the savour of souls at the drop of a hat, especially when it comes to my family. Pray not for me, for I am damned.

    Is there life after death? We'll find out one day.

    Wishing you well and take care, Peter

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  10. It seems that this discussion is based on fact, when it it is really bed on faith. Let's be intellectually honest here.... Death is the end of life as we know it. Whether there is another great adventure beyond this one can only be determined when we die.

    My belief is that we are not meant to know what is on the other side, it there really is another side.

    Therefore, we all react to the death of a loved one in accordance with our own understanding (belief) of what death is.

    For us that are alive, there is only life, there is only this moment.......everything else is either a memory of the past or a supposition of the future.

    Sadness is real, sadness is now and sadness is the whole we have in our heart because our loved one is no longer a part of our LIFE.

    Max, you mention a "better place.". You know how much I love and respect you.......but that is pure conjecture and not a part of our life (our moment in this time and space.)

    I love the way you make me think. I think I am more honest with you than anyone else.

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  11. http://rummuser.com/?p=948

    Need I say more?

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  12. Hi Peter :D!

    Thank you so very much for having shared your personal experience with us; I appreciate it *bowing*.

    "And now that my parents are getting on I fear this lack of emotion when dealing with death will carry on when they pass on. God help me! I have seen so many pass on, both in sleep, disease, accidents, violence, expected and unexpected, young and old; there's nothing much I haven't seen, and that is my curse."

    God will help you, I'm sure. But what I'd really like to say is: I know what you mean (by having seen so much), however I wouldn't call it a curse - it is just part of your experience on earth. If I were in front of you right now, I would do the following: *hug*.

    Peter, this was a beautiful comment for which I thank you a lot :D.

    Cheers

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  13. Hi Mel :D!

    "It seems that this discussion is based on fact, when it it is really bed on faith."

    Fact: knowledge or information based on real occurrences. Based on the knowledge people gained through their personal experiences, I'd say this discussion is based on facts.

    "Let's be intellectually honest here.... Death is the end of life as we know it. Whether there is another great adventure beyond this one can only be determined when we die."

    If death is the end of life as we know it, then we die everyday - cause life as we know it changes everyday. The perishment of the body doesn't mean exactly an end (even Christians would admit to this).
    Well, it depends on your philosophy of life (whether you choose to follow the theory you presented or not): I think that whether there is another great adventure beyond this one or not is determined by your actions in this life.

    "My belief is that we are not meant to know what is on the other side, it there really is another side."

    I agree that not everybody is meant to know what is on the other side, yes. But many do - explain regressions, explain some dreams (exposing memories), explain NDE (near-death experiences) etc....

    "Therefore, we all react to the death of a loved one in accordance with our own understanding (belief) of what death is."

    Maybe, maybe.

    "For us that are alive, there is only life, there is only this moment.......everything else is either a memory of the past or a supposition of the future."

    I am alive and still I believe that there is more than this moment (I may not dwell on or obsess ver it; but I believe this life is not only it). Nevertheless, I agree with you in a sense that there are people who do have access to memories of the past. About the supposition of the future...speak you of Tarot, Astrology, Runes and such?

    "Sadness is real, sadness is now and sadness is the whole we have in our heart because our loved one is no longer a part of our LIFE."

    I believe this sentence for you is true *bowing*.

    "Max, you mention a "better place.". You know how much I love and respect you.......but that is pure conjecture and not a part of our life (our moment in this time and space.)"

    I mentioned a cycle "much better than the cycle spent on earth". I know that, but our friendship doesn't mean that we won't speak our minds, right? So speak, man :D!
    Aha...but simply because your experiences differ from many it doesn't mean that what is being discussed here is sheer conjecture. Had you experienced the same as many did, or had you belonged to the same groups where a consensus truth was reached and you would probably be the first defending the veracity of what is being explored in this article. Space and time: who invented time? And is our space unique?

    "I love the way you make me think. I think I am more honest with you than anyone else."

    You are too generous to me, thanks *bowing*. I confess that I doubt a little of your words (just a tiny bit) ;)...

    Mel, oustanding comment (challenging and all - you made me think and re-think about the whole thing) for which I thank you immensely :D.

    Cheers

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  14. Hi Rummy :D!

    "Need I say more?"

    No, my friend...you need not!

    Thank you for the link provided and I will leave a small comment.

    Cheers

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  15. I think that death is only the beginning. I used to read tarot cards before as a hobby and the card Death symbolises renewal.

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  16. Hi Charles :D!

    "I think that death is only the beginning. I used to read tarot cards before as a hobby and the card Death symbolises renewal."

    I hear you. You did? That is so interesting! Yes, from what I have read so far, depending on the Tarot system being used, death can also mean renewal.

    Charles, thank you so much for your input on this :D.

    Cheers

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  17. You're welcome Max. Also in the Tarot system, Death in reverse also meant stagnation.

    But usually when I read the cards, images just popped up inside my head. Of course knowing the meaning of the cards helped me understand the visions more and allows me to translate it.

    Until now I still find it amazing and weird at the same time. I mean the visions during card readings.

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  18. Sorry Max, but I am not done yet. I must react to some of your comments......

    "If death is the end of life as we know it, then we die everyday - cause life as we know it changes everyday. "
    You confuse the experience of life with life itself. Life itself ends when our body AND mind no longer function. It seems that you understand it to mean the end of an experience......i think?

    "explain regressions, explain some dreams (exposing memories), explain NDE (near-death experiences) etc...."

    NDE is just that....."near Death" not death. Regression and dreams cannot be proven, without doubt, that they actually happened.

    With all my heart and hope, I would like to believe that there is conscious existence beyond this life, however, there is NOTHING that I have read or seen that PROVES it beyond all doubt (like the "law of gravity" or "for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction".....a matters of FACT.)

    "I am alive and still I believe that there is more than this moment (I may not dwell on or obsess ver it; but I believe this life is not only it). Nevertheless, I agree with you in a sense that there are people who do have access to memories of the past. About the supposition of the future...speak you of Tarot, Astrology, Runes and such? "

    I also believe that there is more than this moment, however, we can only LIVE during this moment. LIFE is all about the moment.

    "consensus truth" Just because many people agree, that does not make that agreement TRUTH. Truth is "fact", "reality", "certainty". Agreement does not equal truth. Consensus (agreement) simply means just that.......agreement.

    You can't mess with the word "truth"......well, at least I can't. Truth is indisputable fact.

    Aren't you glad I'm back? [:~)>

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  19. I think the answer can be found from a fact that the modern man is more insecure about death than the primitive man. Perhaps the modern day materialistic culture is partly to blame for this, which just grows on the human beings and the craving to have more and more increases and so is the desire to live more. If we see the primitive man they were more prepared for death as the conditions prepared their minds and bodies for that. But the modern man is more secure and is all the time researching on how to improve and increase life span and running towards the material things on earth. One fine example in our modern day lives is we see people who get dejected with life or face some turbulence in their lives are more inclined towards that feeling of death in their own minds by themselves, but a happy and satisfied man always fears of even thinking about death. Even today if we see, the ones who renounce their families and materialism towards a spiritual life are less concerned about death than others. So its all in the mind and the way we can cultivate it that the feeling of death depends.

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  20. Hi Max,

    Great topic.

    I don't think people are afraid of death more than they misunderstand the concept of rebirthing.

    Like other readers have said, they can't fathom letting go of what they have in this life, but this life is only a precursor to the next life. What we do here determines what we get to do in the next life. Life and death are a continuance of our soul's expansion.

    Life and death are really the same thing in different rooms.

    Great piece. Loved it.

    Live Now Cheers!

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  21. Charles,

    "Also in the Tarot system, Death in reverse also meant stagnation."

    Yes, in some systems it does mean that; but in some stagnation is symbolised by the Hanged Man.

    "But usually when I read the cards, images just popped up inside my head. Of course knowing the meaning of the cards helped me understand the visions more and allows me to translate it."

    Really? I see what you mean. I wish I had the ability to read the cards (but I don't), so all I can do is reading about it *nodding*.

    "Until now I still find it amazing and weird at the same time. I mean the visions during card readings."

    You are that good, eh? :D

    Cheers

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  22. Mel,

    "You confuse the experience of life with life itself. Life itself ends when our body AND mind no longer function. It seems that you understand it to mean the end of an experience......i think?"

    I could be confusing the two, yes; but think of the following: life and the experience of life doesn't end because our mind (the "I") never ends, it never ceases to exist. The body (our costume if you will) perishes yet our "I" lives on (most of the times to take on another costume); so if our mind (the capacity to think, hold memories, feel, sense) doesn't die how can life and its experience demise? It doesn't make sense.

    "NDE is just that....."near Death" not death. Regression and dreams cannot be proven, without doubt, that they actually happened."

    lol indeed, it is not death...but it allows the soul to take a glimpse at it and at what awaits us on the other side.
    Regressions (real ones, not induced ones - and trust me, one can see when it is induced) can be proved, cause thank God we have excellent records that may prove the past existence of people here on earth (and no, I speak not of those people who claim to have been Cleopatra or Napoleon). Dreams are proved whenever things you have dreamed of come into realisation...it is that simple.

    "With all my heart and hope, I would like to believe that there is conscious existence beyond this life, however, there is NOTHING that I have read or seen that PROVES it beyond all doubt (like the "law of gravity" or "for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction".....a matters of FACT.)"

    Perhaps you haven't looked for the right literature, man. Shall I make some suggestions?
    Yet you believe in God, Mel...how do you prove His existence?

    "I also believe that there is more than this moment, however, we can only LIVE during this moment. LIFE is all about the moment."

    This conversation would have to shift to a different direction: parallel realities, duality of the souls etc....have you heard of these concepts?
    Life is much more than the moment and so much more than what we can prove (although parapsychologists are trying to).

    ""consensus truth" Just because many people agree, that does not make that agreement TRUTH. Truth is "fact", "reality", "certainty". Agreement does not equal truth. Consensus (agreement) simply means just that.......agreement."

    Is this a critique to the spiritual and religious systems in the world (since their dogmas are based on consensus truth)? Are you attacking Law and Order...cause its rules are based on consensus, and its Truth is the one we must follow and abide to....

    "Truth is indisputable fact."

    A few centuries ago, it was indisputable truth that black people had no soul and thus they were to be enslaved. A few years ago it was indisputable truth that Jews were sub-humans that needed to be obliterated (and so Europe believed in this Truth and persecuted, humiliated and ended up by obliterating 6 Million Children of Israel). Not long ago (in the Western world), it was an indisputed truth that women were so dumb that they shouldn't influence the course of national politics by casting their vote. Etc etc...
    Truth equals thought divided by time: it is shredded by time and it mutates with it, as our mind acquires more and more knowledge.

    "Aren't you glad I'm back? [:~)>"

    LOL I am super glad you are back, you know that! I missed our debates :D.

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  23. Hi Kalyan :D!

    "I think the answer can be found from a fact that the modern man is more insecure about death than the primitive man."

    I hear you! Even the Celtics (which were hardly primitive) had a more secure stance before Death; they understood it better...perhaps Christianity blurred the issue a bit, I don't know....

    "Perhaps the modern day materialistic culture is partly to blame for this, which just grows on the human beings and the craving to have more and more increases and so is the desire to live more. If we see the primitive man they were more prepared for death as the conditions prepared their minds and bodies for that."

    You know it!

    "One fine example in our modern day lives is we see people who get dejected with life or face some turbulence in their lives are more inclined towards that feeling of death in their own minds by themselves, but a happy and satisfied man always fears of even thinking about death."

    I see what you mean, but it is not that linear. I am extremely happy and satisfied yet I fear not death - perhaps because of my philosophy of life; but the truth is I am in peace with Life and all the things related to it. And many more people in this world feels the same however your theory explains very well the cause for the behaviour (before death) of many out there.

    "Even today if we see, the ones who renounce their families and materialism towards a spiritual life are less concerned about death than others. So its all in the mind and the way we can cultivate it that the feeling of death depends."

    That is also true. But the challenge lies in keeping their families and materialism and yet sustain a spiritual life and be less concerned about death. I am still trying to understand asceticism...
    I agree!

    Kalyan, superb comment for which I thank you a million times :D.

    Cheers

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  24. Hi Lady A :D!

    "Great topic."

    *Bowing*...

    "I don't think people are afraid of death more than they misunderstand the concept of rebirthing."

    Also true...

    "Like other readers have said, they can't fathom letting go of what they have in this life, but this life is only a precursor to the next life. What we do here determines what we get to do in the next life. Life and death are a continuance of our soul's expansion."

    Totally agreed. Absolutely. You know it, girl!

    "Life and death are really the same thing in different rooms."

    *nodding in total agreement*...beautifully put!

    "Great piece. Loved it."

    Thank you *bowing*...and I am glad you loved it, my mystical sista :D.

    Lady A, a wonderful comment: thank you ever so much :D.

    Live Continously Cheers

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  25. Max, I am pretty sure that our differences are semantics.

    I will have more for you a little later. I just want you to be prepared.

    BTW, my belief in "god" is really a belief in something more than this. To be continued.

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  26. Thank you Max for your kind words; you’re the best.

    Now, any coffee drinkers here? What will I miss when I kick the bucket? My Cappuccino decafs! :)

    Have a great weekend!

    Peter

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  27. Mel,

    "Max, I am pretty sure that our differences are semantics."

    :)...

    "I will have more for you a little later. I just want you to be prepared."

    LOL oh I quite prepared...bring it on! lol

    "BTW, my belief in "god" is really a belief in something more than this. To be continued."

    Ok, to be continued...

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  28. Peter,

    "Thank you Max for your kind words; you’re the best."

    You are most welcome :). Awww...don't try to make me blush lol.

    "Now, any coffee drinkers here? What will I miss when I kick the bucket? My Cappuccino decafs! :)"

    Did you call me, Sir? I am a heavy coffee drinker. Decaf!?? Seriously, Pete? And you call yourself a coffee drinker LOL...you kill me!

    "Have a great weekend!"

    Thanks, mate! Have yourself a fab weekend! :D

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  29. Max, I try to think about death as an peaceful, insensate state that resembles our pre-conception state. Totally benign and free of pain, consciousness, problems....

    I think we fear it simply because it is unknown. No one comes back to tell us how to navigate through the process or cope with the finality of it.

    I think the best thing we can do is live and love with gusto, and according to our deepest priorities and principles.

    Thank you for making us think!

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  30. "I could be confusing the two, yes; but think of the following: life and the experience of life doesn't end because our mind (the "I") never ends, it never ceases to exist. The body (our costume if you will) perishes yet our "I" lives on (most of the times to take on another costume); so if our mind (the capacity to think, hold memories, feel, sense) doesn't die how can life and its experience demise? It doesn't make sense."

    Just because it does not make sense does not mean that it does not happen.

    "but it allows the soul to take a glimpse at it and at what awaits us on the other side."

    We do not know that for sure..... It may just be a chemical reaction that creates what we WANT to see....the subconscious want.

    "Dreams are proved whenever things you have dreamed of come into realisation...it is that simple." that is an example of a connection that we all share....something beyond ourselves. I have also had an experience such as this. Without getting into the details, I wonder if the dream was a foreshadowing of a real event, or did the dream hit my subconscious where I looked for the action to take place, therefore creating the action to release the subconscious thought.

    "Perhaps you haven't looked for the right literature, man. Shall I make some suggestions?
    Yet you believe in God, Mel...how do you prove His existence?"

    There is the rub.... we cannot prove his existence. I believe in something beyond the island of our being...... but do not attempt to prove it. I do not believe that it is provable.

    "This conversation would have to shift to a different direction: parallel realities, duality of the souls etc....have you heard of these concepts?
    Life is much more than the moment and so much more than what we can prove (although parapsychologists are trying to)."

    I have heard of all of these concepts, however, I see them as fun to explore and to fantasize about, but to the best of my knowledge non of these has been proven, beyond doubt.....and that is the crux of my position. This is all fun to discuss, but it is not provable.

    "Is this a critique to the spiritual and religious systems in the world (since their dogmas are based on consensus truth)? Are you attacking Law and Order...cause its rules are based on consensus, and its Truth is the one we must follow and abide to...."

    Semantics...... In my view, TRUTH must be undeniable and FACT. I believe that "consensus truth" is an oxymoron.

    "A few centuries ago, it was indisputable truth that black people had no soul and thus they were to be enslaved. A few years ago it was indisputable truth that Jews were sub-humans that needed to be obliterated (and so Europe believed in this Truth and persecuted, humiliated and ended up by obliterating 6 Million Children of Israel). Not long ago (in the Western world), it was an indisputed truth that women were so dumb that they shouldn't influence the course of national politics by casting their vote. Etc etc...
    Truth equals thought divided by time: it is shredded by time and it mutates with it, as our mind acquires more and more knowledge.
    "

    These were not truths.... these were consensus based on dogmatic ignorance. I use the word "Truth" very carefully.

    Truth is black and white.....there are no shades of truth....it's either true or false. A truth is undeniable. I believe that people use the word "truth" far too liberally.

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  31. Hi Lynda :D!

    "I try to think about death as an peaceful, insensate state that resembles our pre-conception state. Totally benign and free of pain, consciousness, problems...."

    Amen, sista!

    "I think we fear it simply because it is unknown. No one comes back to tell us how to navigate through the process or cope with the finality of it."

    Well, people do not remember it, at least...

    "I think the best thing we can do is live and love with gusto, and according to our deepest priorities and principles."

    Agreed!

    "Thank you for making us think!"

    *bowing*...thank YOU for this most delightful comment :D!

    Lynda, it is always a true pleasure to have you here - you were missed.

    Cheers

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  32. Mel,

    "Just because it does not make sense does not mean that it does not happen."

    If the "I" doesn't die (ever), then we never cease to exist. Now, I agree with you that it may happen (we may cease to exist, if God decides to eliminate the "I" for good - but this would be a very extreme measure).

    "We do not know that for sure..... It may just be a chemical reaction that creates what we WANT to see....the subconscious want."

    It could if one were conscious; but when the soul detaches itself from the body (because the matter that creates the chemical reaction is asleep or numb) it is no longer bound by the Wants and Needs, know what I mean? Plus, the trained mind knows for sure.

    "Without getting into the details, I wonder if the dream was a foreshadowing of a real event, or did the dream hit my subconscious where I looked for the action to take place, therefore creating the action to release the subconscious thought."

    Very good points. Dreams are presages when they happen in real life (and they do not always happen exactly like in the dream, due to symbols contained in them); however they can also be the catalyst to pursue what we dreamed of. How to tell them apart? By the conscience of having had looked for the action to take place or not. When a dream vaticinates something, that action will happen when you least expect it (I am sure it has occurred to you being before a situation and saying "Wait, I dreamed of this!"). Of course, dreams that foreshadow events offer us a much more complex view than we are talking about here, but this is basically it.

    "There is the rub.... we cannot prove his existence. I believe in something beyond the island of our being...... but do not attempt to prove it. I do not believe that it is provable."

    I think His existence is proven just by looking at ourselves, at His creation. I understand you, but allow me to pose you two questions: do you believe in love and can you prove it?

    "I have heard of all of these concepts, however, I see them as fun to explore and to fantasize about, but to the best of my knowledge non of these has been proven, beyond doubt.....and that is the crux of my position. This is all fun to discuss, but it is not provable."

    lol they can be fun, yes...but they can also be dreadful. In the search of proving these concepts, scientists often meddle with things that should be left alone. I must follow your line of thought, though: perhaps it is not our place to prove it (just to know it). :)

    "Semantics...... In my view, TRUTH must be undeniable and FACT. I believe that "consensus truth" is an oxymoron."

    Semantics are great fun lol! There is only ONE undeniable TRUTH, Mel and that is God. All the rest, on earth is deniable because what is true today may not be tomorrow.
    I agree with you that "consensus truth" is an oxymoron (but again it was created by Men). However since the Truth, here on matter, is what our minds are willing to accept as such, I am not surprised that the concept stuck with us.

    "These were not truths.... these were consensus based on dogmatic ignorance. I use the word "Truth" very carefully."

    They were consensus truths (truths that the mind of people, back then, were willing to accept as such - and this is so much true that Evil was practised. It still is). And yes, they were based on ignorance. Truth can be manipulated to meet our agendas (another sad Truth, in the midst of the Sea of Earthly Truths).

    "I believe that people use the word "truth" far too liberally."

    We agree upon this.

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  33. The main difference in our debate is that you believe that god is the one undeniable truth.........I do not.

    This was FUN!

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  34. Mel,

    "The main difference in our debate is that you believe that god is the one undeniable truth.........I do not."

    I am sure it is all part of your karmic experience *bowing*.

    "This was FUN!"

    It was amazing!! :D

    Thank you!!

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  35. I read this post while ago Max, and had it on back of my head. So, did I come up with an answer, no. Lol absolutely not. I just don't want to think about it, and when the times comes we will be mature enough to know why we have to leave. Excellent post again and again, and again. Anna :)

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  36. Hi Anna :D!

    I missed you, girl!

    "I read this post while ago Max, and had it on back of my head. So, did I come up with an answer, no. Lol absolutely not. I just don't want to think about it, and when the times comes we will be mature enough to know why we have to leave."

    lol I understand, darling. Oh yes, maturity to face death is vital, no doubt (because many want to cling to life, even though their time is up).

    "Excellent post again and again, and again"

    Thank you *bowing*!

    Anna, thank you ever so much for your comment :D.

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete

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Dissecting Society welcomes all sorts of comments, as we are strong advocates of freedom of speech; however, we reserve the right to delete Troll Activity; libellous and offensive comments (e.g. racist and anti-Semitic) plus those with excessive foul language. This blog does not view vulgarity as being protected by the right to free speech. Cheers