Positive Discrimination...



…What the bloody hell does this mean?

Last week, I heard some disturbing news: gypsy children are receiving their academic education in a container, separated from the other kids (who are being lectured in a recently refurbished school). This class is comprised of 6-16 years old children – all mixed together.
This is happening in the Boa Negra primary school, in Barcelos (North of Portugal).
The justification offered, by a governmental institution (that oversees educational matters), is that the school is executing a positive discrimination (plus, it is not a mere container, it is one with A/C: oh, that makes it all better, doesn’t it?).

Discrimination: “The practice of treating one person or group of people less fairly or less well than other people or groups”.

How can treating these gypsy kids less fairly even be considered positive?
The gypsy community is known for not allowing their female children to go to school – despite what the law says (and in some cases, they’d attend school but wouldn’t be allowed to go beyond the 4th grade). The Portuguese social assistance has been battling for years in order to make them understand that our law states that it is mandatory for any kid, within the Portuguese territory, to attend school at least until the 9th grade.
Now that this community finally accepted to send their female kids to school, the Portuguese government [instead of rejoicing over this immense breakthrough] disrespects the gypsies, simply because of their ethnicity.

Yes, it can be argued that it wasn’t the government, per se, that lacked the proper respect for these citizens; that it was the school and the institution that supervises primary schools, in the North; however when the government does not repudiate, in public, this sort of behaviour, then it becomes an accomplice.

The left wing of this country shouts, at the four corners of the world, how pro-social it is. But is it?
I see the lefties criticising the United States of America, I see them criticising Israel (yes, Minister Luís Amado; this one is for you); I see them selling out our country to a corrupt nation (Angola), but I don’t see them looking inside our own borders, criticising what is going on here and, most of all, being the defender of the weakest – yet, their vote later this year will be essential.
Today it is the gypsy community...tomorrow it will be some other fragile group.

Positive discrimination...the half-wit that came up with this expression, utterly ignores the definition of the two involved words; and if he/she was trying to create a paradox, of some sort; I must say that it was an extremely unfortunate one.

Shame on you, Portugal!

Image: St Michael vanquishing the Devil by Bonifacio Veronese

Comments

  1. MAX:

    Interesting article. I don't know anything about the gypsies, so I found your post to be very informative.

    The word socialization bothers me a little, because I'm afraid that the left wants a sort of quasi-Communist state where everybody gets the same size rice bowl with the same helping of rice. Hard work and competition would be thrown out the door in favor of the mediocrity. That's what's happening over here and the the big "L" word is too righteous to see the fault in their grand plan.

    Having said that, however, everybody should be treated fairly with the same access to education, and jobs. That's not to say anything should be handed to them for free. "The right" means the right to work hard, save money, and provide for yourself. The government's job is to ensure and enforce that right. But what do you do when one group withholds that right from their own members simply on the basis of gender? By preventing their women from attending school, the gypsies are clearly violating their basic human right and should be dealt with harshly. Positve discrimination? That's limp. At least that's my opinion.

    Another thought-provoking post.

    Happy trails.

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  2. Positive discrimination? That's just too far!!! I hope that the government soon takes some proper action to deal with this problem!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hey Swu :D!

    "Interesting article. I don't know anything about the gypsies, so I found your post to be very informative."

    Thank you *bowing*! Oh, one day I will write about them in depth (for they have a fascinating culture, but also a dark side - but which culture doesn't, right?).

    "The word socialization bothers me a little, because I'm afraid that the left wants a sort of quasi-Communist state where everybody gets the same size rice bowl with the same helping of rice."

    That's what they claim to want, but if we take a good look at how the put it in practice we will realise that the rice bowl should be the same size for the people; whereas the ruling party must have bigger rice bowls than everybody's.

    "Hard work and competition would be thrown out the door in favor of the mediocrity. That's what's happening over here and the the big "L" word is too righteous to see the fault in their grand plan."

    What a heresy *nodding*! I see what you mean...

    "Having said that, however, everybody should be treated fairly with the same access to education, and jobs. That's not to say anything should be handed to them for free."

    I agree.

    ""The right" means the right to work hard, save money, and provide for yourself. The government's job is to ensure and enforce that right. "

    The government's job is also to legislate and regulate. There are a few things that government must have under its control: education, health and utilities - why? Not only to be an alternative to the private sector, but also to make sure that those who have less have access to these things.
    When health is placed in the hands of the private sector, the poor do not have access to health treatment of quality...and we all know it.

    "But what do you do when one group withholds that right from their own members simply on the basis of gender? By preventing their women from attending school, the gypsies are clearly violating their basic human right and should be dealt with harshly."

    Well, I agree that the gypsies were violating their female children's basic human rights; but discriminating those children is not the answer to deal with this violation...especially when now they have come to their senses.
    The law says that children must go to school, when someone doesn't send its kids to school it should go to jail (since paying a fine is not enough).

    "Positve discrimination? That's limp. At least that's my opinion."

    I agree. Thanks for sharing your opinion with us!

    "Another thought-provoking post."

    Thanks, Swu :D!

    And thank you so much for your superb input *bowing*!

    Cheers

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  4. Hey Amel :D!

    "Positive discrimination? That's just too far!!! I hope that the government soon takes some proper action to deal with this problem!"

    I hope so too, girl *nodding*! They have gone too far indeed.

    Gorgeous, thank you so much for sharing your opinion with us :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  5. Interesting how they try to hide the word "discrimination" behind the word "Positive". It's still discrimination.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Like you, I don't see anything positive in this shameful discrimination!

    I don't know politics in Portugal well, but I agree that generally, some are quick to criticize other countries and don't look at their own backyard. It's a shame... because showing a model that works in one country could inspire others to follow.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Hi Max,

    Happy Maxday!

    Once again, I love the choice of photo. You have great artistic taste and the photo is very apropos for the subject matter.

    I didn't know that gypsies were in Barcelos. I knew of them being in Eastern Europe. That's neither here nor there, just thinking out loud.

    I have heard a lot of oxymorons in my day including; ignorant intelligent; absolutely unsure; awfully nice; perfect mismatch, abundant poverty and now I can add positive discrimination to that massive list.

    I don't understand the mentality behind putting a vast age range in one classroom. How are they going to get their academic requirements met? And for the educators to admit that they are executing "positive discrimination," shows that they themselves have not been educated in education. It doesn't sound like a classroom more than it sounds like a holding cell.

    With so much discrimination happening in the world such as age, race, gender, workplace, human rights, religion, etc., it never occurred to me that there is also educational discrimination.

    "..gypsy community is known for not allowing their female children to go to school – despite what the law says (and in some cases, they’d attend school but wouldn’t be allowed to go beyond the 4th grade)."

    Really. How did the government get them to understand that the kids should be in school longer?

    In the U.S. the schools get a certain amount of money per student so they go out of their way to make sure kids attend school. Is it the same in Portugal?

    If we knew the kinds of deals the government made at our expense, we would be more outraged. :-o

    This is another exceptional article that sears the very essence of education. It takes a whole village to raise a child and a classroom to raise them to the ground.

    The whole concept sounds like a false positive.

    Absolutely Positive Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Positive Discrimination"....that's unbelievable!!! That's like saying "humane murder." Discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple. It's wrong and it's evil. We should know, here in the US.

    I hope you (the grand you) can do something to bring this to light and have it stopped.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Max, is the government completely in charge of the education of both gypsies and non-gypsies?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hello, Max!

    Impressive article!

    Indeed, what the bloody nonsense was that? We were quite shocked to hear about this outraging policy: unbelievable!

    Europe, the land of civilization, should be ashamed of this despicable behaviour. In Italy, last year, a gypsy girl was left to die, in a beach full of people, just because she was a gypsy; and similar behaviour can be seen in Romania and Hungary *nodding*.

    There is nothing positive about descrimination, period.

    The way they tried to justify their actions was actually pitiful, for education in this country is not a favour done to people, it is a constitutional right which is supposed to be provided properly and in equality for all.

    As European & World citizens, we are mourning over this, and we join our voices to yours in shouting out loud:

    Portogallo, vergognati!!!

    ReplyDelete
  11. Human beings are edging closer toward expressing unconditional love equally to all persons. Every action is a step closer to getting what people want, even if it does not initially seem as such. The subject you choose to write about is one way you raise awareness of how things are, and can be.

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  12. Hi my Max!

    Sorry i've been away for a long time but as i told u before i was quite busy with office stuff...
    Anyway, i really admired your sensitivity about this issue, darling!

    I was thinking that these kind of discriminations only happens in south-east of Turkey. Fathers who don't let their female children to go to school.And mothers who can't say "NO!" to their husbands But unfortunately it happens.
    And can somebody tell me the difference between positive and negative discrimination?Do the ones, who claims an existing positive discrimination, think that "positive" word can melt the harshness?

    I blame them roundly!

    And huggss to my Max!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  13. Hi Max….

    Very interesting piece of art…Michael’s blade seems to be fascinatingly curved….and there does not appear to be a scabbard to put it away in…

    “Positive Discrimination” reminds me of a conversation I recently had with a US basher…they called Pearl Harbor, 911 and every other bad thing imposed upon the US as “intentional accidents” but Iraq and everything they perceive as bad done by the US as evil imperialism etc…

    This situation with the gypsy children seems to be such a lost opportunity…and foolishness...the other thing is every cent they put into those children now will probably pay off much bigger if they can get them engaged in a healthier way in the larger society in a positive way…

    Interestingly we have the opposite situation in Canada (laws imbedded within the system)…Those with as little as 1/8 aboriginal (First Nations) in them receive special treatment such as not paying taxes if they live on “native land”, free university education, special fishing and hunting/trapping opportunities, lower penalties for crimes they may commit, they receive enormous amounts of federal aid (including money) beyond any other citizens etc…this being said their plight is sad as they do not typically embrace these opportunities presented to them and engage in the larger culture in a healthy way…

    ReplyDelete
  14. Max, I say the same shame shame and shame. Positive discrimination, its like giving and taking away at the same time. Max you tell them girl, you tell them.

    On the other hand, I like gypsies, I used to see them everywhere in Europe - Poland, Germany, Italy, and when we went to Greece.

    Max you have the best topics in the blogging world. Thanks for sharing. Anna :)

    ReplyDelete
  15. Hey D!

    :D

    "Interesting how they try to hide the word "discrimination" behind the word "Positive". It's still discrimination."

    Of course it is! They are ridiculous people, that's what they are *nodding*.

    D, thank you so much for sharing your opinion; it is much appreciated :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  16. Hey Zhu :D!

    "Like you, I don't see anything positive in this shameful discrimination!"

    I am telling you, if I ever met the person who said this...we would have an interesting pow-wow...

    "It's a shame... because showing a model that works in one country could inspire others to follow."

    So true...I just wish people would understand that!

    Zhu, ma cherie, thank you so much for letting us know your thoughts on this :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  17. Max, I agree with Anna in that you always DO come up with fascinating topics. And I dare say, they are informative, as well!

    I lean towards the left, but I don't want to discourage hard work and competition. And I'm not a socialist.

    I have trouble with the reductionist and meaning-denying impact of labels. They tend to obscure the truth(s) of an issue, although sometimes we may need to use them to illustrate a point.

    As for "positive discrimination," it's nothing more than SEGREGATION. Public education for all children everywhere, is the hope of our world. We cannot afford to lose anybody to ignorance. We already have enough of that!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Hi Alexys :D!

    "Happy Maxday!"

    Happy Maxday!

    "Once again, I love the choice of photo. You have great artistic taste and the photo is very apropos for the subject matter."

    Thank you *bowing*! Discrimination is a devil, and we (as St Michael) must kill it.

    "I didn't know that gypsies were in Barcelos. I knew of them being in Eastern Europe. That's neither here nor there, just thinking out loud."

    We have gypsies everywhere, here in Portugal. Just like the Gitanos in Spain (only the Spanish value their Gitanos; and the Portuguese despise their "ciganos" [gypsies in Portuguese] - not smart).

    "I have heard a lot of oxymorons in my day including; ignorant intelligent; absolutely unsure; awfully nice; perfect mismatch, abundant poverty and now I can add positive discrimination to that massive list."

    "ignorant intelligent"...wow...that's new...at least to me.

    "I don't understand the mentality behind putting a vast age range in one classroom. How are they going to get their academic requirements met? And for the educators to admit that they are executing "positive discrimination," shows that they themselves have not been educated in education. It doesn't sound like a classroom more than it sounds like a holding cell."

    It is an absurd! 6 years old kids required certain methods to learn, whereas 16 years old kids will need other type of methods (especially since they are starting from scratch at that age - teaching these kids involve a certain dynamics to keep them interested)...I don't understand people *nodding*.
    I totally agree with you "they themselves have not been educated in education" - because most of them haven't. Did you know that, in Portugal, teaching has become a job alternative? If an accountant doesn't find a job as such, he will teach math or even history (shocking) *nodding*...
    It is a holding cell...when I saw the images of it, I felt sick to my stomach!

    "With so much discrimination happening in the world such as age, race, gender, workplace, human rights, religion, etc., it never occurred to me that there is also educational discrimination."

    Oh yeah...and this is a drop in the ocean. We have teachers that turn to black kids and treat them as "you people" (when they are poor); we have teachers who mistreat white kids that live in the slams; we have teachers that envy their pupils and grant them lower grades (than they deserve) just because they didn't have good grades in school when they were young (thus discouraging kids from proceeding their education)...stuff like that *nodding*.

    "Really. How did the government get them to understand that the kids should be in school longer?"

    Yes. Social assistants would go to gypsy neighbourhoods and talk with their ancient groups and explain them the benefits of sending their girls to school, and how it would help them integrate themselves better in our society etc.
    I have a friend, who is a social assistant, and she explained me that it is tough negotiating with them.

    "In the U.S. the schools get a certain amount of money per student so they go out of their way to make sure kids attend school. Is it the same in Portugal?"

    No. But I know that our government offers an incentive [a.k.a subsidy] to poor people if they put their kids in school (however, the middle class also benefits from it - even without needing it).

    "If we knew the kinds of deals the government made at our expense, we would be more outraged. :-o"

    True, girl...so true.

    "This is another exceptional article that sears the very essence of education. It takes a whole village to raise a child and a classroom to raise them to the ground."

    Thank you, A *bowing*! Absolutely, absolutely!

    "The whole concept sounds like a false positive."

    Positive doesn't even have room in this story *nodding*...

    Lady A, thank you so much for your contribution to this article: your thoughts completed it :D!

    Positive Mind Cheers

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  19. Hey Mel :D!

    ""Positive Discrimination"....that's unbelievable!!! That's like saying "humane murder." Discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple. It's wrong and it's evil. We should know, here in the US."

    It is!! Like I said, I don't know who was the half-wit that came up with this expression...but I would like to though *nodding*.

    "I hope you (the grand you) can do something to bring this to light and have it stopped."

    Mel, I am just getting started!

    My friend, thank you so much for your input: I love hearing your opinion :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hey Looney :D!

    "Max, is the government completely in charge of the education of both gypsies and non-gypsies?"

    The government is bound, by our constitution, to provide free education (which is not entirely free) to all its citizens and, foreign citizens living in National Territory.
    It is the government who is completely in charge of it and it is its duty to supervise it. And it has also to oversee private schools.

    Looney, thank you for having dropped by :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  21. Hi Circulus Ciceronis :D!

    "Impressive article!"

    Thank you very much *bowing*!

    "Indeed, what the bloody nonsense was that? We were quite shocked to hear about this outraging policy: unbelievable!"

    It is, isn't it? Now imagine my face when I heard the news? I felt sick. But what shocked me the most is the fact that the Portuguese seem to be fine with it (generally speaking), they found it normal...and our politicians said nothing. Disgusting.
    But the Sporting scandal is being spoken since Saturday, can you believe it?

    "Europe, the land of civilization, should be ashamed of this despicable behaviour. In Italy, last year, a gypsy girl was left to die, in a beach full of people, just because she was a gypsy; and similar behaviour can be seen in Romania and Hungary *nodding*."

    Hear, Hear! I heard about it...è terrificante, non è vero *nodding*?

    "There is nothing positive about descrimination, period."

    Nothing at all...

    "The way they tried to justify their actions was actually pitiful, for education in this country is not a favour done to people, it is a constitutional right which is supposed to be provided properly and in equality for all."

    Wasn't it? Shameless people, just shameless! But of course...and they do act as if they were doing those kids a favour; must I read them the 9th, 13th and 43th articles of our constitution? I even wonder if they know what a constitution is...*nodding*.

    "As European & World citizens, we are mourning over this, and we join our voices to yours in shouting out loud: Portogallo, vergognati!!!"

    Thank you, thank you, thank you *High Five*!!! Sì, vergognati Portogallo...mi fai schifo, eh!

    C.C. thank you ever so much for your input and for your support: I appreciate it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  22. Hey Liara :D!

    "Human beings are edging closer toward expressing unconditional love equally to all persons. Every action is a step closer to getting what people want, even if it does not initially seem as such. The subject you choose to write about is one way you raise awareness of how things are, and can be."

    I never thought about it this way...this is so positive (yes, this is positive).
    I hope so, Liara...I hope so...

    Thank you so much for having dropped by and shared your precious thoughts with us :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  23. Hi Burcu :D!

    Oh my God...I missed you!!

    "Sorry i've been away for a long time but as i told u before i was quite busy with office stuff..."

    It's ok, life can be overwhelming!

    "Anyway, i really admired your sensitivity about this issue, darling!"

    Thank you *bowing*!

    "I was thinking that these kind of discriminations only happens in south-east of Turkey. Fathers who don't let their female children to go to school.And mothers who can't say "NO!" to their husbands But unfortunately it happens."

    No, this type of thing happens everywhere, unfortunately *nodding*. It is sad, isn't it?
    Women, in your country, should come together and kick some serious butts...I am telling you.

    "And can somebody tell me the difference between positive and negative discrimination?Do the ones, who claims an existing positive discrimination, think that "positive" word can melt the harshness?"

    There is none, darling...discrimination is discrimination, period. People who come up with these terms are illuded people who want to drag the rest of us into their evil illusion.

    "And huggss to my Max!!!!"

    Aww...hugs to you, my dear Burcu *hug*!

    Burcu, thanks for having dropped by (I know you have been busy) and for sharing your thoughts with all of us :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hi LS! :D

    Oh my Lord...to have you here among us again...what a delight *bowing*!

    "Very interesting piece of art…Michael’s blade seems to be fascinatingly curved….and there does not appear to be a scabbard to put it away in…"

    Well, perhaps Michael doesn't intend to put it away...he will fight the devil (in its many forms) forever.

    "“Positive Discrimination” reminds me of a conversation I recently had with a US basher…they called Pearl Harbor, 911 and every other bad thing imposed upon the US as “intentional accidents” but Iraq and everything they perceive as bad done by the US as evil imperialism etc…"

    Ah, yes...the US Bashers...one has got to find them interesting *nodding*...they seem to be so creative.

    "This situation with the gypsy children seems to be such a lost opportunity…and foolishness...the other thing is every cent they put into those children now will probably pay off much bigger if they can get them engaged in a healthier way in the larger society in a positive way…"

    I totally agree with you. We have a chance to end centuries of ostracism and experience full integration...but Portugal is blowing it *nodding*.

    "Interestingly we have the opposite situation in Canada (laws imbedded within the system)…Those with as little as 1/8 aboriginal (First Nations) in them receive special treatment such as not paying taxes if they live on “native land”, free university education, special fishing and hunting/trapping opportunities, lower penalties for crimes they may commit, they receive enormous amounts of federal aid (including money) beyond any other citizens etc…this being said their plight is sad as they do not typically embrace these opportunities presented to them and engage in the larger culture in a healthy way…"

    This doesn't seem fair, does it? Plus, I find this type of laws highly offensive...what do they label these aboriginals as, exactly?
    But our gypsies ask for no special favours (they know they don't need it), but respect.

    LS, thank you so much for having dropped by and shared your precious thoughts with us :D!
    It was good to see you back here :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hey Anna :D!

    "Max, I say the same shame shame and shame. Positive discrimination, its like giving and taking away at the same time. Max you tell them girl, you tell them."

    Thanks, girl *High five*! I will continue to tell them: thanks for the support :D!

    "On the other hand, I like gypsies, I used to see them everywhere in Europe - Poland, Germany, Italy, and when we went to Greece."

    I like them too. Ok, they have some weird cultural traits, but don't we all? So, I think they they deserve respect.
    There are gypsies also in Spain - have you heard of Joaquin Cortes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5X7jAxeVhk&feature=related
    I think the world can only benefit from the gypsy culture...boy, they can dance & sing!

    "Max you have the best topics in the blogging world. Thanks for sharing."

    Aww, thank you for your kindness, my darling :D! It is my pleasure *bowing*!

    Anna, thanks for your support, girl...I appreciate it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  26. Hey Lynda :D!

    "Max, I agree with Anna in that you always DO come up with fascinating topics. And I dare say, they are informative, as well!"

    Thank you so much, darling *bowing*!

    "I lean towards the left, but I don't want to discourage hard work and competition. And I'm not a socialist."

    LOL I love the way you said "I am not a socialist" - did you know that if you'd say that here, in Portugal, you would probably be considered a a fascist? I kid you not. Here if you're not socialist or communist, you'll be considered a fascist...how shocking is that?

    "I have trouble with the reductionist and meaning-denying impact of labels. They tend to obscure the truth(s) of an issue, although sometimes we may need to use them to illustrate a point."

    I hear you! That is a good point...however, in this case this expression was not used to illustrate a point, it was used to camouflage an evil, mean, despicable, reprehensible, sickening, sad act and behaviour *nodding*.

    "As for "positive discrimination," it's nothing more than SEGREGATION. Public education for all children everywhere, is the hope of our world. We cannot afford to lose anybody to ignorance. We already have enough of that!"

    Amen, sister! Again: amen! We can't afford it any more, no! YES!!! *standing ovation*!

    Oh my God, what a comment! Fantastic *clap clap clap*!

    Lynda, thank you so so much for these outstanding words! :D

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  27. Max, I guess if Portugal's constitution is based on a "one size fits all" education system, then they should stick to their constitution or change it.

    My concern is that education is inseparably linked to culture and family, but this cannot be sensibly addressed in top-down government controlled education factories. When we do this in the US, we always end up with a lowest common denominator system. What is ironic is that the elitists who insist that this is the right system for the US all send their kids to private schools. Do they do that in Portugal too?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Hi Looney,

    "Max, I guess if Portugal's constitution is based on a "one size fits all" education system, then they should stick to their constitution or change it."

    Exactly!

    "My concern is that education is inseparably linked to culture and family, but this cannot be sensibly addressed in top-down government controlled education factories. When we do this in the US, we always end up with a lowest common denominator system."

    I see where you are coming from. I don't think that our system is wrong, or that it can't work...it can work.
    I personally believe that the government must represent an alternative to the private sector (so that people with less means have access to education and health, at least); however, things must be well planned and controlled, which are not (obviously).
    Our model emulates the ones implemented by the Scandinavian countries, and it works well there...so it can work well here too (with better and more competent politicians).

    "What is ironic is that the elitists who insist that this is the right system for the US all send their kids to private schools. Do they do that in Portugal too?"

    No. In Portugal, even the rich people send their kids to public schools. We have excellent public schools.
    Even our public Universities are better (generally speaking) than our private ones - it is odd, but it's true.

    And what is worse is: high middle class families apply for scholarships (even without needing it), and the government will actually grant them *nodding*. There is not control, no nothing. This must change.

    Ah, Looney, I could be here forever telling you stories about our educational system...let me share one more thing with you: until 1996, public college tuition was something like $5/term at that time. And when the government announced that it would charge $10/term college students accused the state of being a thief LOL...yet they wanted quality education *nodding*.
    But that was then...

    ReplyDelete
  29. I came to thank you for your visit, then left again to play a game at SlogBite - guess what? Yours was the first place I landed! I am clearly meant to be here.

    I know little about the Portuguese educational system, to my embarrassment, but it sounds as though it must be streets ahead of the British system with its two tiers of private and public schools. University level is better - almost no university education is private. As for gypsy education, local authorities are bound by law to provide for travelling families, but whether it is of decent standard I really don't know. A "base" school is required to hold a place for a travelling child even while the family is away from the area.

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  30. Hi Max! I hope this post wakes up the people involved and that they do something about it soon. It's shameful but it is really happening and not only in Portugal!

    How are you dear? I hope all is well and I wish you a fun weekend. I have something for you here. Sorry it took so long. :)

    ReplyDelete
  31. Max,

    Well, it's about time....I finally landed on your site when playing my own game. BTW, following is the comment I am leaving when I visit a site from the game:

    "I am just making the rounds to SlogBite member sites and using SlogBite’s new game to make the site choices for me, and this time your site was chosen. If you haven’t tried it you really should give it whirl. http://www.slogbite.com/particpant-features/slog-machine

    BTW, I am in the process of making the SlogBite categories even more granular. I want to enable you, and all SB members, to create an accurate profile of your site using the SB categories to show off your best and/or most important posts/articles. Therefore, if you have the time, please let me know what additional categories you would join if I created them. You can, and should get very specific. Take a look at SB's category list and leave a comment as to what else you would like to see. http://www.slogbite.com/joining-slogbite/category-list"


    Max, I am looking to dramatically expand the categories. I want the SB member's profile page to be the best and most accurate profile available on the net.

    If you can think of any additional categories that would fit your site, please let me know

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hi Max….

    "Very interesting piece of art…Michael’s blade seems to be fascinatingly curved….and there does not appear to be a scabbard to put it away in…"
    Well, perhaps Michael doesn't intend to put it away...he will fight the devil (in its many forms) forever.”

    - Interesting when you use the word “it” for the “devil”….I know we have had this conversation…

    "This situation with the gypsy children seems to be such a lost opportunity…and foolishness...the other thing is every cent they put into those children now will probably pay off much bigger if they can get them engaged in a healthier way in the larger society in a positive way…"
    I totally agree with you. We have a chance to end centuries of ostracism and experience full integration...but Portugal is blowing it *nodding*.”

    - This is similar to “affirmative action” in that it grows discrimination…

    "Interestingly we have the opposite situation in Canada (laws imbedded within the system)…Those with as little as 1/8 aboriginal (First Nations) in them receive special treatment such as not paying taxes if they live on “native land”, free university education, special fishing and hunting/trapping opportunities, lower penalties for crimes they may commit, they receive enormous amounts of federal aid (including money) beyond any other citizens etc…this being said their plight is sad as they do not typically embrace these opportunities presented to them and engage in the larger culture in a healthy way…"
    This doesn't seem fair, does it? Plus, I find this type of laws highly offensive...what do they label these aboriginals as, exactly?”

    - Canadian aboriginals typically use the term First Nations…There are many reason they do this most of which has to do with attempting to gain equal status with Canada as nations states themselves within our political boundaries…

    ReplyDelete
  33. Hi Max! I’m back! For a start, no child should be housed in a container for reasons we all know too well. For heavens sake they are meant for the storage of goods not humans.

    The possible negative psychological and physical implications could have wide ranging and long term effects from the feelings of “Why do they treat me so badly compared to the other children?” “Am I not good enough?”; “Am I being punished?”; worthlessness and claustrophobia to hypothermia and hyperthermia.

    The above is compounded even further by the mere fact that they see themselves in some sort of doghouse and not a proper school building like the other children.

    Here in my home state of New South Wales over 4000 demountable classrooms (high class containers / relocatable buildings) are currently in use, with 60 in the outer west. Many are over 20 years old, in very poor condition and have no air-conditioning.

    Considering our extreme weather conditions in summer, with temperatures of up to 100 degrees F and above, children and their education are being put at risk by a government not prepared to provide proper accommodation. Much the same, I would imagine, could be said for the children that you speak of.

    One politician here has been quoted as saying, "If the Premier can find $30 million for a V8 Supercar race and $5 million for New Year's Eve fireworks, he can certainly find some money to give country kids a decent learning environment." Sounds fair enough to me, so why don’t they fix it? Well, if they can get away with it, why change it I suppose!

    The container and the demountables are no doubt a temporary solution in order to house school children quickly, but ours have become permanent to the detriment of our children. I hope yours doesn’t become the same as ours!

    Not knowing enough about Gypsy children I looked around to find out what I could learn. Correct me if I’m wrong on any part!

    I am told that they are afraid of strangers and feel secure among their brothers and sisters with most of the older children looking after their younger siblings.

    Perhaps this may be the reason why they have put the 6 to 16 year olds together, separate from the others, as it’s probably expected this will keep them at school, rather than staying at home helping their parents and grandparents.

    Mixed-aged classes have been used here and overseas with good effect. From what I have learnt “children can develop cognitively and socially through interacting with children of different ages.”

    They can also “benefit from the opportunity to become an expert for younger children to learn from.”

    The one thing I do consider very important especially for the gypsy children at the Boa Negra School, is that “mixed-aged teaching resembles more closely the family setting that children with siblings find themselves at home.”

    Considering Gypsy children live in large and extended families I would think this would go down well with them.

    One disturbing fact I have come across is that it has been known for teachers to quit their job rather than educate gypsy children. Perhaps it’s their ignorance or the inadequate resources they are given to teach them; but still a very sad fact.

    Lastly, if there is one thing we can agree on it’s this, “it is better to educate gypsy children than to not to.”

    Take Care,
    Peter

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hey Liza,

    "I hope this post wakes up the people involved and that they do something about it soon. It's shameful but it is really happening and not only in Portugal!"

    I hope so too, girl! Oh? Don't tell me it happens there too?

    "How are you dear? I hope all is well and I wish you a fun weekend. I have something for you here. Sorry it took so long. :)"

    I am fine, darling, thank you :D! And yourself?
    Oh, I have read it: thank you so much! I have tried it already and it worked!! Thanks :D!
    No, it's ok...the job was well done :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  35. Mel,

    "Well, it's about time....I finally landed on your site when playing my own game. BTW, following is the comment I am leaving when I visit a site from the game:"

    LOL I am glad you did! :D

    I will visit the links your provided: thanks!

    I will be at SB soon so that I can check this situation out...

    "Max, I am looking to dramatically expand the categories. I want the SB member's profile page to be the best and most accurate profile available on the net."

    And you have my support! Let's do it!

    "If you can think of any additional categories that would fit your site, please let me know "

    I will, mate!

    ReplyDelete
  36. Hey Sheila :D!

    Welcome!!!

    "I came to thank you for your visit, then left again to play a game at SlogBite - guess what? Yours was the first place I landed! I am clearly meant to be here."

    You are welcome, darling - I really enjoyed your site :D! what? Oh my Lord...I was wondering if my blog would ever be hit by any one :)! You were meant to be here for sure!

    "I know little about the Portuguese educational system, to my embarrassment, but it sounds as though it must be streets ahead of the British system with its two tiers of private and public schools. University level is better - almost no university education is private."

    I hear you! Our public universities are better than the privates (which are not that many either).

    "As for gypsy education, local authorities are bound by law to provide for travelling families, but whether it is of decent standard I really don't know. A "base" school is required to hold a place for a travelling child even while the family is away from the area."

    I know what you mean. That is wonderful! But our gypsies are not travelling families...not any more.

    Sheila, thank you ever so much for having dropped by and shared your views with us! I hope you do return :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  37. Hi Max
    my opinion-there are no values... oh we are just adapting, and purging whatever society impels us to it will always be like this (graurr (??)). neither for the "sides" of society theres good sense i mean for segregators who think society as their own and for "excluded" that dont want to live with society basic rules (yeah...but want its advantages) so where does this leads us to? to survival, the strongest one law. If i agree with it all..not in a million.... but who really am I here?
    Well, at the end, there is a lot of news which are just to shiny thats my understanding at least...
    see you!

    ReplyDelete
  38. Hi LS,

    "- Interesting when you use the word “it” for the “devil”….I know we have had this conversation…"

    LOL Aaah, you remember... :)

    "- This is similar to “affirmative action” in that it grows discrimination…"

    Exactly.

    "- Canadian aboriginals typically use the term First Nations…There are many reason they do this most of which has to do with attempting to gain equal status with Canada as nations states themselves within our political boundaries…"

    How so (I am sorry, I didn't quite get this)?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hi Peter :D!

    "I’m back! For a start, no child should be housed in a container for reasons we all know too well. For heavens sake they are meant for the storage of goods not humans."

    That is wonderful: to have you back!
    Exactly! Exactly!! Thank you!

    "The possible negative psychological and physical implications could have wide ranging and long term effects from the feelings of “Why do they treat me so badly compared to the other children?” “Am I not good enough?”; “Am I being punished?”; worthlessness and claustrophobia to hypothermia and hyperthermia."

    Absolutely! This is an excellent point! What right do these people have to make these kids feel worthless or less than others? None whatsoever.

    "The above is compounded even further by the mere fact that they see themselves in some sort of doghouse and not a proper school building like the other children."

    Who are right next to them...*nodding*.

    "Here in my home state of New South Wales over 4000 demountable classrooms (high class containers / relocatable buildings) are currently in use, with 60 in the outer west. Many are over 20 years old, in very poor condition and have no air-conditioning."

    Oh my God! That is terrible! They may be "high class containers" but if they are in poor conditions and have no A/C...they become a regular container, don't they?
    What is the population in your home state doing about it?

    "Considering our extreme weather conditions in summer, with temperatures of up to 100 degrees F and above, children and their education are being put at risk by a government not prepared to provide proper accommodation. Much the same, I would imagine, could be said for the children that you speak of."

    Ooh, I can imagine the heat *nodding*! Yes, of couse the education and the state of mind of these children are being put at risk...I don't understand how government can neglect education and, most of all, children (the future of any nation) - it is so undemocratic.

    "One politician here has been quoted as saying, "If the Premier can find $30 million for a V8 Supercar race and $5 million for New Year's Eve fireworks, he can certainly find some money to give country kids a decent learning environment." Sounds fair enough to me, so why don’t they fix it? Well, if they can get away with it, why change it I suppose!"

    Indeed...why don't they fix it? What are they trying to say about country kids?

    "The container and the demountables are no doubt a temporary solution in order to house school children quickly, but ours have become permanent to the detriment of our children. I hope yours doesn’t become the same as ours!"

    I hope for the same thing, Pete! That container began by being a temporary solution for the kids that are now receiving their education inside the recently refurbished school...but the school wants to make it permanent to gypsy kids: inexcusable!

    "I am told that they are afraid of strangers and feel secure among their brothers and sisters with most of the older children looking after their younger siblings."

    Yes, they are suspicious of strangers because they have been ostracised for centuries by everybody. And yes, the older children look after their younger siblings (one the aspects that I love about them).

    "Perhaps this may be the reason why they have put the 6 to 16 year olds together, separate from the others, as it’s probably expected this will keep them at school, rather than staying at home helping their parents and grandparents."

    It could be one explanation, yes. However, that was not the reason why: it is a form of telling the gypsies that they shouldn't have let their female children out of school for so long. But that is not that state's role to play - the state should create a separate class for the teenagers (mind you: they are in the 1st grade) in order to keep them in school (and find a way of compacting 4 years into one - intensive learning; for they are teens and not babies).
    I heard one of the students (she was 15) saying that she intended to leave school because she didn't want to be in the same class as 6 years old "toddlers" (her own words)...

    "Mixed-aged classes have been used here and overseas with good effect. From what I have learnt “children can develop cognitively and socially through interacting with children of different ages.” "

    I agree if it is classes with kids of 6 - 10 years old. But mixing babies with teenagers is never good; never.
    This is not college, nor high school (we also have mixed-aged classes in these institutions); this is primary school.

    "The one thing I do consider very important especially for the gypsy children at the Boa Negra School, is that “mixed-aged teaching resembles more closely the family setting that children with siblings find themselves at home.”"

    It is a nice argument; only in that gypsy class they don't feel like family; they feel discriminated.

    "Considering Gypsy children live in large and extended families I would think this would go down well with them."

    Even coming from a large family people, when going to school, like to mingle with other folks (to learn new things). And these kids want to learn from and mingle with others.
    Segregation is never good, never.

    "One disturbing fact I have come across is that it has been known for teachers to quit their job rather than educate gypsy children. Perhaps it’s their ignorance or the inadequate resources they are given to teach them; but still a very sad fact."

    It is sad indeed, Pete.

    "Lastly, if there is one thing we can agree on it’s this, “it is better to educate gypsy children than to not to.”"

    It is better to educate any children than not to.

    Peter, thank you ever so much for your well thought comment: I loved it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  40. Hi G :D!

    So good to see you!

    "my opinion-there are no values... "

    I agree with your opinion...

    "oh we are just adapting, and purging whatever society impels us to it will always be like this (graurr (??))."

    lol...I can feel your pain, man lol...

    "neither for the "sides" of society theres good sense i mean for segregators who think society as their own and for "excluded" that dont want to live with society basic rules (yeah...but want its advantages) so where does this leads us to? to survival, the strongest one law. If i agree with it all..not in a million.... but who really am I here?"

    I get your point of view: it is quite valid!
    You are one fine Portuguese citizen that has offered us a pretty good comment on this, G! :D

    "Well, at the end, there is a lot of news which are just to shiny thats my understanding at least...see you!"

    It is duly noted!

    G, thank you so much for having stopped by (you were missed) and share your thoughts with us: I loved it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  41. Positive discrimination?, kind of like an oxymoron. And very ironic, don't ya think that people who are criticizing others are doing the same, but giving it a pleasant nonsensicle term.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Hi Bob :D!

    "Positive discrimination?, kind of like an oxymoron."

    Indeed...

    "And very ironic, don't ya think that people who are criticizing others are doing the same, but giving it a pleasant nonsensicle term."

    Criticising people is not the same as discriminating; but I understand where you are coming from...

    Bob, Lord of the Astropics, thank you so much for your input :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  43. Http://partance.wordpress.com
    Post "les Roms" and "mes cris"
    Translator:
    I do not speak English, but according to the translator google, it seems to me that we share the same dismay in front of the obscurantism.
    Cordially. Sérénity

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hey Max you are right boy they can dance and sing, true expression of happiness. You know I dance with Matthew, and he love it! Thanks Max for the link! Anna :)

    ReplyDelete
  45. Salut Sérénity!

    Bienvenue a MAX :D!

    "I do not speak English, but according to the translator google, it seems to me that we share the same dismay in front of the obscurantism. Cordially. Sérénity"

    Je vais te faire une petite visite sur ton blog, merci pour le link :D!

    Obscurantisme (parent de la ignorance) me rend trés triste et déçu!
    [Obscurantism (a relative of ignorance) saddens & disappoints me a lot.]

    Merci d'être venue et je te remercie d'avoir partagé avec nous ton avis sur ce sujet :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hey Anna!

    "Hey Max you are right boy they can dance and sing, true expression of happiness."

    Absolutely!! :D

    "You know I dance with Matthew, and he love it! Thanks Max for the link!"

    Aww, that is so cute! He must look so adorable dancing :)!
    Anna, you are welcome, girl - it's my pleasure to share stuff with you!

    ReplyDelete
  47. Well, I have read the comments ... and under the motto of " Audiatur et altera pars" I would like to oppose them.

    Firstly, I do not believe in positive discrimination but do believe in fair chances. Everyone must be given the same chance to evolve his/her talent, but that's it. If you cannot grab your chance, it is your problem.

    The question is whether the gipsies are given the opportunity to develop their talent. In my opinion yes. As far as I know public education is free in most European countries ( except for, maybe UK ) besides there exist numerous grants etc to financially support the poor if they want to study. It is the problem of the gipsies if they do not exploit their chances.

    Secondly, I would refer to the " norms and values". It is not like that that only the majority has to accept the values and habits of the minority, it should be the other way around, as well. The gipsies are living among us for 700 years ( they were first registered in the first half of the XV. century ). I wonder, why they did not catch up with the majority culture : that you have to work, study, suffer and mainly rely on your own efforts if you want to prosper in the society. It is notable , that ALL minorities managed to to this : the Basks in Spain, the Austrians in Italy, the Irish in the UK ... everybody except for the gypsies ... remarkable ...

    Thirdly I would like to comment on a particular fact. The economic situation is a bit different in Eastern Europe (with large gypsy population) than in the rest of the EU. ( Just a comparison : in Eastern Europe a junior engineer earns not more that EUR 450 net and a senior banker, in a non managing position has to make do with maximum EUR 1500 per month ).
    In spite of their getting a lot of support in these Eastern European countries, they do not show any progress. Just some examples :
    - In a certain Central European country gypsies have lynched at least two respected citizens ( one teacher and one sportsman ) - beside the lot of "less famous" people ( mainly countrymen )
    - In certain Eastern European countries gypsies en masse terrorise the (non gypsy) villagefolks. ( You can think of the most violent delicts such as raping, plundering and swatting old women, raping and killing schoolgirls or just simply terrorizing people ). Unfortunately these enormities does not happen sporadically, they may characterise the everyday life in come districts )
    - It is widely observable, that gypsies not only evade school but they even physically insult teachers ( one particular example to this was a physics teacher being beaten with an iron tube during lesson )

    I could carry this on but the moral is : contrary to the investment ( which is considerable compaerd to the living standards of these countries ) the gypsies behave utterly asocially. It is the question how much tolerance must be asked from their fellow citizens.

    Fourthly, some personal comments. Some of the prevoius commenters may have seen gypsies only on picture. Well, we have more to do with them. I was attacked in my own house by two gypsies on questioning them what the hell they are searching for there. My girlfriend has been several times bespitten by gypsy boys when she refused giving them money and my mother has been robbed by them. So maybe my opinion is more " authentic" ...

    ReplyDelete
  48. Hello Peste :D!

    Part I

    Welcome!

    "Well, I have read the comments ... and under the motto of " Audiatur et altera pars" I would like to oppose them."

    LOL (nice use of the motto)...please do oppose any of us...let's hear your reasons....

    "Firstly, I do not believe in positive discrimination but do believe in fair chances. Everyone must be given the same chance to evolve his/her talent, but that's it. If you cannot grab your chance, it is your problem."

    Positive discrimination is a ridiculous expression. Fair chances is fair enough.
    Indeed.

    "The question is whether the gipsies are given the opportunity to develop their talent. In my opinion yes. As far as I know public education is free in most European countries ( except for, maybe UK ) besides there exist numerous grants etc to financially support the poor if they want to study. It is the problem of the gipsies if they do not exploit their chances."

    I appreciate what you mean...
    The question here is that the Gypsies (now that they want to exploit their chances - yes, because a few years ago they didn't seem to want to take advantage of our educational system) are being cast aside in schools. There are special classes for gypsies; meaning that the gadjies (non-gypsies) are in separate rooms so that they do not get mixed with the gypsy kids - this is discrimination and it is unacceptable.

    "It is not like that that only the majority has to accept the values and habits of the minority, it should be the other way around, as well."

    I understand where you are coming from...but whom is the majority, exactly? You see, this type of argument must be carefully used...
    Another question: because the majority is the majority, does it have the right to disrespect other cultures?

    (to be continued)

    ReplyDelete
  49. Peste,

    Part II

    "The gipsies are living among us for 700 years ( they were first registered in the first half of the XV. century ). I wonder, why they did not catch up with the majority culture : that you have to work, study, suffer and mainly rely on your own efforts if you want to prosper in the society."

    The question is: did the majority give them opportunities to "catch up" like you say? Because surely you know how the majority has ways to get in the way of certain communities so that they do not "catch up".

    "It is notable , that ALL minorities managed to to this : the Basks in Spain, the Austrians in Italy, the Irish in the UK ... everybody except for the gypsies ... remarkable ..."

    Interesting...you speak of nationalities, we speak of ethnicity.

    "The economic situation is a bit different in Eastern Europe (with large gypsy population) than in the rest of the EU. ( Just a comparison : in Eastern Europe a junior engineer earns not more that EUR 450 net and a senior banker, in a non managing position has to make do with maximum EUR 1500 per month )."

    I do not think it is the gypsies fault that the economic situation in Eastern Europe is precarious - this is a highly inflamatory argument...

    "I could carry this on but the moral is : contrary to the investment ( which is considerable compaerd to the living standards of these countries ) the gypsies behave utterly asocially. It is the question how much tolerance must be asked from their fellow citizens."

    This is a poor argument, and to tell you the truth it reminds me of far-right wing speech.
    Europeans, in general, are known for their respect and tolerance towards other cultures, religion and ethnicity (that is why the WWII was fought - by the way, Gypsies were also gased by the nazis...) and speeches like this smear their reputation.

    "Some of the prevoius commenters may have seen gypsies only on picture."

    Well, the ones that never met one were clear about it...but, you should not assume to know what other people have seen or not.

    "Well, we have more to do with them. I was attacked in my own house by two gypsies on questioning them what the hell they are searching for there. My girlfriend has been several times bespitten by gypsy boys when she refused giving them money and my mother has been robbed by them. So maybe my opinion is more " authentic" ..."

    "Authentic"...I would say that your opinion is of an "angry" person. Just because some gypsies treated you with disrespect and foul play, it doesn't mean that you are to blame all gypsies in the world.
    My brother was robbed by white people, should he hate all white people? No, in fact, it would be ridiculous of him to do so.
    Delinquency goes beyond ethnicity...you should understand that.

    Hittler felt his "art" had been rejected by a Jewish art-dealer: he got angry and felt betrayed...and look what happened.

    Peste, thank you so much for having shared your personal thoughts with us.

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hoi Max,

    Nice answer.
    First I would elaborate on the "cliches" then I proceed to answer to the ( in my opinion ) meaningful thoughts.

    So, part 1 : the cliches.

    1. ""Authentic"...I would say that your opinion is of an "angry" person."

    The moral of my words ( i.e., that I do know what I am speaking of, since I witnessed it ) is being nullified with the assumption, that I am ( negatively ) biased towards the gypsies.
    In my point this is not a strong argument.

    Then it is followed by
    "Hittler felt his "art" had been rejected by a Jewish art-dealer .. "

    If I did not admire your style, I would say, this is a very nasty statement, implicitely implying that I have something to do with the Nazionalsozialisten. This implication is affirmed by

    " (that is why the WWII was fought - by the way, Gypsies were also gased by the nazis...) and speeches like this smear their reputation. "

    To be honest ( throw a stone on me ) I do not realy care about WW2. But I do not think it elegant from your side that I ( in lieu of a real answer ) got this as an answer to my real remark

    "It is the question how much tolerance must be asked from their fellow citizens"

    In my point the answer provided by you just "smears the problem" ( or : sweeps it under the carpet ) by invoking nazism, WW2, gaschambers and things like this.
    The question is more far-reaching and has a more deeper impact on our future ( see also possible migration of folks from their countries due to global climate change, etc ) to be simply swept off the table by invoking WW2 and Hitler and things like this.

    So this was my comments on general beliefs, now I would like to answer to some other points.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Part 2.


    1 . "Interesting...you speak of nationalities, we speak of ethnicity. "

    I think this is an inept answer, since

    1.1. I think, that this whole story is about flexibility. Are you able to adapt yourself to the " boundary conditions" - if you cannot change them, and if you profit from an adaptive behavior ?

    From this point of view it is completely indifferent, whether it is ethnicity or nationality, don't you think ?

    The adaptive behavior is the key to the sucess, in my point.

    1.2. I can recall ethnicites, too.
    For example, let us consider the Turks in The Netherlands.
    From my circle of friends I have two examples when a Turk reached the top of the Dutch society.
    ( The CEO of Corendon and a pretty sucessful electricity trader in Amsterdam. )
    The other example to this ( which may be more relevant ) is the Jewish community in Hungary. according to the Jewish quarterly "Szombat" the powerty among the members of the Hungarian jewish community is much less than that among the average Hungarian population.

    or just let me mention the Chineese community - whereever in Europe.

    So, adaption works, for different "ethnicities" and in different parts of Europe. Interesting, that it does not work for gypsies.

    2. "The question is: did the majority give them opportunities to "catch up" like you say? Because surely you know how the majority has ways to get in the way of certain communities so that they do not "catch up". "

    In conjunction with my answer in #1 I can say, that in Europe chances have ben and are given to everybody,
    PROVIDED
    that he/she is willing to do something for his own future.
    Don't you think ?

    3.
    "I understand where you are coming from...but whom is the majority, exactly? You see, this type of argument must be carefully used...
    Another question: because the majority is the majority, does it have the right to disrespect other cultures? "

    Majority is, in my point, who shares the values which have proven to be successful and viable during decades.
    What do I think of ?

    1. The protestant ethics. Hard work, the supremity of private property, the drive to acheve something.
    Regardless the location of the country this is quite significant in Europe from Belarus to Portugal.

    2. Some questions from the family right. For example it is not healthy for the youth to give bearth to children under, say 16.

    3. The general manner the people settle the dispotes among themselves. One should follow the legal regulations ( and also the unwritten laws of the society ).

    Now comes my answer to the second question.
    My answer is : NO, you cannot respect cultures which inhibit these rules, since these rules are ( in my point of view ) the cornerstones of the (post) industrial Western society.

    It is abstract, let me be a bit concrete.
    Let us consider a country, say Pirezia ( this is a fictitious name, but the events I will wirite did happen in an existing EU-country. )

    1. In Pirezia it hapened, that a ( gadjo - as you write ) car-rdiver ALMOST (!) run over a gypsy girl.
    As a response, the gypsies lynched him - before the eyes of his 2 daughters also travelling in the car.
    The lynching took place for 20 minutes, some 50 gypsies were involved.

    During the court trial the following defense was to be heard :
    - We, gypsies are people with temperament.

    Question : can this be accepted ?

    2. In Pirezia majority of the youth giving birh to babies under an age of 16 are gypsies.
    The argument is : We gypsies ripe sexually earlier than the " gadjos"

    My question is : if it is standing black and white in the lawbooks, that it is forbidden to establish a sexual intercourse with persons under 16, can this attribute be tolerated ?
    My answer is : NOT. The same law holds for everybody.

    I could carry on with these examples to justify my answer.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Part 3.

    3.
    "I appreciate what you mean...
    The question here is that the Gypsies (now that they want to exploit their chances - yes, because a few years ago they didn't seem to want to take advantage of our educational system) are being cast aside in schools. There are special classes for gypsies; meaning that the gadjies (non-gypsies) are in separate rooms so that they do not get mixed with the gypsy kids - this is discrimination and it is unacceptable. "

    This is the most interesting comment.
    Unfortnately I cannot agree, at least not fully.
    I tell you why.

    If a gypsy boy could, say, solve differential equations at an age of 16 then I would be the happiest if my son attended to the sam class. Why ? because it gives a drive for my son, to excel and to try to achieve more.

    To be honest, I haven't heard of a case like this.
    What I heard in Pirezia is, that
    1. gypsies drop out of school because of improper results.
    2. they terrorize their fellow-students
    3. They bespit or beat up their teachers as follows : they a given (gypsy ) schoolboy's "long family" ( i.e., father, mother, elder brothers ) stem in the classroom and before the eyes of the other students they beat up the teacher.

    ( In Pirezia the expression "long family" became an adage always describing a situation like this )

    It is apparent, that under these circumstances the performance of the fellow students ( gypsy or nit : does not matter ) are affected.

    From the statistics it seems, that these devant students ( with their "long families" ) are gypsies in 90% of the cases. ( Here I couple back to the prevoius point and mention, that gypsies also admit, that learning is not a part of their culture. )

    My question is : do we have right to take away the chances of these fellow students just to implement a non-seggregation policy ?

    In my opinion NOT.
    Let us consider Pirezia. A poor EU land, where the inhabitants can get their only chance ( to go abroad to work ) if they are qualified. So, qualification is CRICIAL for the Pirezians. The desegregation policy definitely impairs their chance to accumulate knowledge.

    It means, that the policymakers implement their ideas on the cost of the taxpayers ( the mentioned fellow students ). I would not say this is ethical.

    Finally, I think, you may have put the cart before the horse.
    Isn't it that those DEVIANT kids are "expelled" to special classes happen to be GYPSIES ?
    From my experience in Pirezia I may tend to believe so.

    Thx for the answer.
    Sincerely:
    -Pestis Nigra.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Hello Peste,

    "First I would elaborate on the "cliches" then I proceed to answer to the ( in my opinion ) meaningful thoughts."

    Go right ahead...

    "The moral of my words ( i.e., that I do know what I am speaking of, since I witnessed it ) is being nullified with the assumption, that I am ( negatively ) biased towards the gypsies."

    No, not at all...I was just stressing that the tone of your words seemed to express more anger than anything else.

    "In my point this is not a strong argument."

    Fair enough...

    "If I did not admire your style, I would say, this is a very nasty statement, implicitely implying that I have something to do with the Nazionalsozialisten."

    LOL Peste, you are so kind: thank you for admiring my style *bowing*. And I apologise if I came across as being nasty to you; but again...your "apparent anger" misled me.
    Well, if you had anything to do with the Nazionalsozialisten you would be in your right to do so, since we live in a free world, yes? But if you don't, all the better.

    "To be honest ( throw a stone on me ) I do not realy care about WW2. But I do not think it elegant from your side that I ( in lieu of a real answer ) got this as an answer to my real remark "It is the question how much tolerance must be asked from their fellow citizens""

    LOL no, I won't throw stones at you...speak on, brother. Well, your "real remark" could only draw such an answer; because cultural tolerance must not have boundaries. Now, if you could prove me that all gypsies (and I mean all of them around the world) were deliquents, that they'd spend their existence stealing, raping, killing people, that they're nothing but parasites...then yes, I would have to tell you that we were not to show any kind of tolerance towards this community.
    But this was not the case: you (and people close to you) had a traumatic experience with gypsies and you seem to accuse the whole ethnicity of being lazy, thieves, and the low of the lowest...do you realise the difference?

    "In my point the answer provided by you just "smears the problem" ( or : sweeps it under the carpet ) by invoking nazism, WW2, gaschambers and things like this."

    If you don't care about the WWII why be so sensitive about "nazism, WW2, gaschambers and things like this"? Feel free to ignore me.

    "The question is more far-reaching and has a more deeper impact on our future ( see also possible migration of folks from their countries due to global climate change, etc ) to be simply swept off the table by invoking WW2 and Hitler and things like this."

    I see no problem with responsible (i.e. legal) migrations of folks to our countries. We (Europeans) also migrated to other people's countries and we were not that responsible in most of the cases, were we?
    So, yes...whenever I am before a person whose speech reminds me of Hitler's, Franco's, Duce's and other fascists', you bet I will invoke the WWII and "things like this".

    "So this was my comments on general beliefs, now I would like to answer to some other points."

    I appreciate your comments *bowing*. All right...let's move on to the next phase...

    ReplyDelete
  54. Peste,

    Part II

    "From this point of view it is completely indifferent, whether it is ethnicity or nationality, don't you think ?"

    I see what you mean...but still, you offered as a base of behavioural comparison nationalities (to which you called minorities) and not ethnicities. For example, you said "It is notable , that ALL minorities managed to to this : the Basks in Spain, the Austrians in Italy, the Irish in the UK ... everybody except for the gypsies ... remarkable ..."
    Minority: "An ethnic, racial, religious, or other group having a distinctive presence within a society./ A group having little power or representation relative to other groups within a society" - the Basks, yes are an ethnic group; but Irish, Austrian, are nationalities that when abroad become immigrants (under the point of view of the guest country) or emigrants (under the point of view of the birth country), however, in this context, they are not a minority because you did not specify their religion, race or ethnicity.
    Now, I could fully accept your argument if you had said "It is notable, that ALL minorities managed to do this: the Jewish people in Spain, the Muslims in Italy, the Black people in the UK...everybody except for the gypsies...remarkable..." and even so I would argue that the gypsies in Spain (the Gitanos) have adjusted just fine and are part of the national identity; therefore NOT ALL the gypsies have failed in "catching up with the majority culture : that you have to work, study, suffer and mainly rely on your own efforts if you want to prosper in the society."

    "1.2. I can recall ethnicites, too.For example, let us consider the Turks in The Netherlands. From my circle of friends I have two examples when a Turk reached the top of the Dutch society.( The CEO of Corendon and a pretty sucessful electricity trader in Amsterdam. )"

    You did not specify the Turk's ethnicity: was it a Karakalpak, a Turkmen, a Kazakhs, a Kumyks, a Uzbeks, a Kurd, an Armenian, an Arab, a Jew, a Chechen, Cossack or what? Again, you spoke of a nationality.

    "The other example to this ( which may be more relevant ) is the Jewish community in Hungary. according to the Jewish quarterly "Szombat" the powerty among the members of the Hungarian jewish community is much less than that among the average Hungarian population.""

    NOW you have presented a good example of an ethnicity. Indeed, the Jewish people are very organised. In Portugal, the Jewish community is also less poor than the average Portuguese population.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Part III

    "or just let me mention the Chineese community - whereever in Europe."

    "Chinese" is a nationality...(you have several ethnic groups there: Han, Zhuang, Hui, Miao, Mongols, Tibetans, Dong, Yao, Hani, Korean etc) but I know what you mean; and you are right - they are very successful.

    "So, adaption works, for different "ethnicities" and in different parts of Europe. Interesting, that it does not work for gypsies."

    Although this phrase was not backed up by the proper semantics, I must agree with you (because if we change all that you said into the proper set of words, the result will be the same); however it may not work for some gypsies, not all of them. But I believe that the reason for it lies in society's lack of effort to solve the issue.

    "In conjunction with my answer in #1 I can say, that in Europe chances have ben and are given to everybody, PROVIDED that he/she is willing to do something for his own future. Don't you think ?"

    Yes, I think so.
    But I also know that some gypsies (and I speak because I have dealt with the Portuguese gypsies) adjusted well, are successful and contribute a lot to our society (but these are very few). Most gypsies did not because the Portuguese society is bigot towards them, period.

    "2. Some questions from the family right. For example it is not healthy for the youth to give bearth to children under, say 16."

    I agree. But there seems to be an increasing trend to bear children under 16 - which goes beyond nationalities and ethnicities.

    "My answer is : NO, you cannot respect cultures which inhibit these rules, since these rules are ( in my point of view ) the cornerstones of the (post) industrial Western society."

    Ok. So, you are saying that we can (and should) respect cultures as long as they do not break our societal laws?

    "1. In Pirezia it hapened, that a ( gadjo - as you write ) car-rdiver ALMOST (!) run over a gypsy girl. As a response, the gypsies lynched him - before the eyes of his 2 daughters also travelling in the car. The lynching took place for 20 minutes, some 50 gypsies were involved.
    During the court trial the following defense was to be heard : - We, gypsies are people with temperament. Question : can this be accepted ?"

    No, this cannot be accepted. But you see, the gypsy father also generalised his own ethnicity...because not ALL gypsies would respond in the same fashion. He (and his croonies) lynched a man because he is uncivilised and should pay according to the law - it is that simple.

    "2. In Pirezia majority of the youth giving birh to babies under an age of 16 are gypsies. The argument is : We gypsies ripe sexually earlier than the " gadjos""

    In Portugal, the youth giving birth to babies under the age of 16 are white, black, gypsies, mulattoes, east-europeans etc. Again, the gypsy argument is a fallacy.

    "My question is : if it is standing black and white in the lawbooks, that it is forbidden to establish a sexual intercourse with persons under 16, can this attribute be tolerated ? My answer is : NOT. The same law holds for everybody."

    It depends: are the males that get those girls pregnant over 18? Because if they are than this is a crime. But what if they are of the same age as the girls? It may not be a crime everywhere...know what I mean?
    But the law, is to be abode by all citizens of a nation.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Peste,

    Part IV

    "This is the most interesting comment. Unfortnately I cannot agree, at least not fully. I tell you why."

    Please do...

    "If a gypsy boy could, say, solve differential equations at an age of 16 then I would be the happiest if my son attended to the sam class. Why ? because it gives a drive for my son, to excel and to try to achieve more."

    I understand your argument; however the article (to which you are commenting) speaks of children who are all in the same academic level (1st-4th grades). Gypsies are cast aside, because parents do not want their kids mixed with that particular ethnicity.
    And frankly, I had non-gypsy classmates that were 0 at mathematics (literally, their tests and final exams were graded zero) and it did not stop me from wanting to excel and achieve more.

    "To be honest, I haven't heard of a case like this."

    So you see...there are several experiences regarding the gypsy community.

    "What I heard in Pirezia is, that
    1. gypsies drop out of school because of improper results."

    The gypsy kids I went to school with had good grades.

    "2. they terrorize their fellow-students"

    In my school no one was terrorised by gypsy kids.

    "3. They bespit or beat up their teachers as follows : they a given (gypsy ) schoolboy's "long family" ( i.e., father, mother, elder brothers ) stem in the classroom and before the eyes of the other students they beat up the teacher."

    Here any ethnicity beats up a teacher if the teacher becomes abusive - which is sad, that is not the proper way to solve that type of issue.
    But I have heard of gypsy families that attack teachers when these insult their ethnicity, yes - which is also reproachable.

    "My question is : do we have right to take away the chances of these fellow students just to implement a non-seggregation policy ? In my opinion NOT."

    I disagree. Because it is a bad principle: kids are not to be cast aside because of their ethnicity, period. Doing so, is yielding to discrimination - which is a violation of basic human rights.
    I am not saying that there isn't a problem, I am simply saying that there are ways of dealing with it without humiliating people.

    "Let us consider Pirezia. A poor EU land, where the inhabitants can get their only chance ( to go abroad to work ) if they are qualified. So, qualification is CRICIAL for the Pirezians. The desegregation policy definitely impairs their chance to accumulate knowledge."

    I don't see how. Unless they are not focused people.
    When going abroad, they will come across people who are less prepared than them, less educated, less professional...are you telling me that in such environment they will not be able to do their work properly, thrive and want to achieve more?

    "It means, that the policymakers implement their ideas on the cost of the taxpayers ( the mentioned fellow students ). I would not say this is ethical."

    Ah, voilá...at least you admit that it is unethical.

    "Finally, I think, you may have put the cart before the horse. Isn't it that those DEVIANT kids are "expelled" to special classes happen to be GYPSIES ? From my experience in Pirezia I may tend to believe so."

    These kids in question are not even deviant, so I do not know what you're talking about. I am sorry you had a bad experience in "Pirezia" (and by the way, you should use the real name of the country, for denouncement purposes), nevertheless I cannot (in full conscience) agree with your point of view (regarding the unethical solution to solve the problem).

    "Thx for the answer. Sincerely: -Pestis Nigra."

    Thank YOU for your input, Peste :D

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete

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Dissecting Society welcomes all sorts of comments, as we are strong advocates of freedom of speech; however, we reserve the right to delete Troll Activity; libellous and offensive comments (e.g. racist and anti-Semitic) plus those with excessive foul language. This blog does not view vulgarity as being protected by the right to free speech. Cheers