Sunday, 29 March 2009

Abortion: what about Men's Rights?


“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have give it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by the reason of life that makes atonement” (Leviticus 17:11).
Science has proved that the blood only begins to flow in an embryo by the 5th week.
So, if God says that life is in the blood and science has proven that the blood is present by the 5th week: should it be inferred that an embryo is only a living human after the mentioned week?
Now, around this time women seldom realize they are pregnant, so when an abortion is carried out after week 5…does this mean a living human is being severed?
Tough questions…

Some people say that an unborn creature is not a person yet. But isn’t it? If God says that life of the flesh (i.e. Soul) is in the blood, and science says what it says…it sounds like an unborn baby is very much a person.
Some other people say that one becomes a person at conception. But does it? If the soul comes at the same time the blood does, and science is clear about when the blood starts flowing…it seems like we are not a person before week 5 (since the soul is not there yet). However, I understand how comfortable it is to have such an opinion (bearing and wanting our own derivative must be the highest form of Love).

There is something interesting about those who claim to be pro-choice & pro-abortion (two different things): first, they suffer from the God Syndrome; second, when they speak of those who are pro-life they act and talk as if defending life was a bad thing, or an insult to women. Yes, I comprehend their cause (although I don’t swallow some of their arguments, such as “poor women should have options”…it sounds like they’re saying that abortion is one way to decrease the number of poor people on earth – they may not mean it that way, but that’s what it sounds like) however, I don’t hear these people explaining what an abortion does to women (psychologically speaking), and how many organs it damages inside…they make it seem so banal.

There is something perplexing about folks who claim to be pro-life: first, in reality many of them are pro-choice (for they choose when a woman may have an abortion – in case of danger to the mother; in case the baby has some sort of defect [it doesn’t specify what kind of defect – vanity may play a big role here], and in case of rape & incest [understandable yet spiritually debatable]); second, some of them are, in truth, against-life (for they murder doctors who perform abortion – it doesn’t make sense), hence proving that they too suffer from the God Syndrome (I create, I destroy).

Abortion has been viewed as a woman’s right (notwithstanding debatable).
Women undergo this type of procedure, many times without informing the father of the child (when possible).
Yes, men are known for that silly statement “I’ll pay for everything” (in the past, some women thought they were talking about paying for the kid’s education…poor souls); but not all men would say it, and not all men would want to see their kid taken away like that – who protects these men?

I have a friend whose girlfriend had an abortion and informed him after she had done it. The guy cried for days, for he wanted his kid, his own flesh and blood – his mother was distraught to see a grandchild disposed in such a manner – what laws protect men like my friend and their families?

Yes, women have their rights; but if we are to live in an equalitarian society, so should men.
A woman has the right to reject being a mother; but what right does she have to deny fatherhood to a man?


For further reading on this controversial issue, please refer to LS: Here

51 comments:

  1. Hi Max...

    The extrapolation you have created from Leviticus 17:11 is rather...off target.

    First let us look upon the context. We are in Leviticus which is concerned with the holiness of God and human sinfulness the sacrificial system was created because of these issues.

    The immediate context of the verse is that of not eating any blood within the Levitical system.

    Here is the verse in question:

    11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
    (TNIV)

    The verse itself is concerned with the soul...with life....within the Levitical system. It is not a broad sweeping biological statement. Blood is needed for atonement which is the overarching context and core of this verse. This is of course central to Christianity with Jesus being the resolution with His perfect sacrifice and atoning work...He is the bridge between the holiness of God and the needed cleansing of the sins of humans...

    As humans are created in the image of God to murder a baby is to militate against God, to attack God where abortion is concerned...when are humans human? We are told:

    5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
    - - Psalm 51:5 TNIV

    At conception the baby was sinful....this demands humanity. The above word translated as “conceived” actually is intertwined with the intimacy of the sexual act the heat of the passion which means from the instant of conception.

    The DNA of the being created at conception between a human male and human female is human with a soul....

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  2. I heard many guys who insisted that the gf should go for abortion because they are not prepare or ready for a marriage.
    Perhaps, it's both side. I think abortion should not be allow unless certain circustances. That's only my opinion.

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  3. Hello Max!

    Abortion is a despotic state of mind, even the dialectics of it, it is simply thorny.

    So, why would a politician take pride in legislating about it and turn it into law?
    When it is legalized it holds a nation, and its people, hostages to the notion that life is disposable.
    When it is against the law it makes a country, and its citizens, abide by anguish and oppression.

    A miscarriage is devastating let alone an abortion. What to do then? Educate people to understand the consequences of such act (personal, social and morally).

    Men's rights:
    1- Steady relationship: men do certainly have a word to say about the life of the foetus.
    2- Illicit relationship: they still have the right to participate in any decision-making.
    3- One night stand: they are entitled to an opinion as long as one knows the whereabouts of the guy.

    Max, the Circulus Ciceronis congratulates your boldness.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Max,
    Finally an fun topic.....not. You can pick them....the tougher the topic the more likely you will take it on.

    I am having just a little trouble with the way you portrayed this topic. What I mean is the first 80% was a recap of the "Pro Life / Pro Choice" argument; all valid and all debatable. You laid it out very well. My issue is that you only gave a few lines to the subject of the topic" "Men's Rights."

    Now to address this topic.....you may be surprised as to my opinion here. It is the rare man who gets so emotionally involved with the unborn child (BTW, I agree with the 5 week concept). Now, I am taking the married man out of this equation, for now. I think the man is, and this may seem cruel, a sperm doner. I feel that the emotional attachment to the unborn child, for a man, comes with his commitment to the family. It is the woman who has to carry the child and deal with all that happens in the 9 months prior to the birth and the lifetime after.

    I really don't think that the man has any rights in this regard. His rights begins with his commitment in the form of marriage or whatever commitment the woman will accept. Until then he has no rights!

    ReplyDelete
  5. You have raised some important points. I don't approve of abortion, but I guess I would have to make an exception for the cases you mentioned above, like when it endangers the life of the mother, and then, only if she isn't very far along. I wish it were illegal. But because it isn't, I think there should be laws about informing the father. But the one problem with that, that I can see, is that you can't prove the fatherhood without doing genetic testing. I'm not sure they can do that at early stages of a pregnancy.

    I feel sorry for your friend whose girlfriend had the abortion. I would grieve that loss too. But frankly, maybe he will learn that he isn't just having sex with a woman, he is possibly creating life. Maybe it will make him think twice about the consequences of his actions. Maybe he will take more seriously his responsibilty with regards to procreation. He has been given this power, he should guard it more carefully, and only have sex with someone who he intends to raise a family with (and in my beliefs, they should be married first). I know that might sound old fashioned but in the long run he will be happier, and it shows more responsibilty to bring a child in to a stable environment. We have to look at why we are sexual beings. It all comes down to procreation. Yes, there is enjoyment along the way. But that enjoyment is nature's way of ensuring that we procreate. The main reason for sex is procreation. Too many people today think the main reason is pleasure. Even though there may be pleasure involved, and other benefits such as bonding a man and women together, it still is about creating life.
    I once heard a talk about this subject. The speaker said that if someone were to walk around on a college campus with a loaded gun, randomly shooting people, we would all be shocked. The taking of life is a very serious matter. But, he said, we should be just as shocked at the thought of someone going around campus randomly having sex. In God's eyes, the two most serious sins have to do with the taking of life, and the creating of life. I think humans in general forget about this sacred responsibility, and only focus on their selfish pleasures.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Boy, what a topic!!! I honestly don't know what to say about this...but personally speaking, if I were raped and I got pregnant (HOPE NEVER!!!), I MAY consider doing abortion (in my head I'd be scared about raising the baby alone and also if I could despise the baby esp. if he/she looked like my rapist, what if the baby asked who the father is, etc.), though I don't know what my final decision would be since it's just too hard to know for sure.

    Secondly, I tend to agree with Mel that most men probably don't feel the connection with the baby right from the start. I remember one friend whose husband is a VERY LOVING and caring person...he wrote about his experience when their baby was born and he said that he felt the baby was a "stranger" at first...unlike the mother who felt the connection already even before the baby was born.

    Now I'm stuck. No more words about this topic he he...

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  7. It is impossible to understand the despair of an unwanted pregnancy if you have never experienced it. Nobody should be forced -by anyone- to go through nine months of despair.

    There would be far fewer unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions, if birth control were readily available to those who need it, when they need it. The people who are against abortion are so frequently against freely available birth control.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hey LS,

    "The extrapolation you have created from Leviticus 17:11 is rather...off target."

    Is it?

    "First let us look upon the context. We are in Leviticus which is concerned with the holiness of God and human sinfulness the sacrificial system was created because of these issues. The immediate context of the verse is that of not eating any blood within the Levitical system."

    Are you saying that these words are only applicable to animals (to be sacrificed)? Because if one follows your reasoning then one would have to ask you if it is ok to eat human blood; since God spoke not of humans, but of beasts...
    It seems to me that this sentence is valid both for humans and animals: with the blood comes the soul - but you are entitled to your opinion, of course *bowing*.

    "The verse itself is concerned with the soul...with life....within the Levitical system."

    Are you saying that outside the Levitical system human blood is edible?

    "It is not a broad sweeping biological statement."

    Is this an absolute truth for you? :)

    "As humans are created in the image of God to murder a baby is to militate against God, to attack God where abortion is concerned...when are humans human?"

    Humans are humans once the blood starts flowing at week 5 (for the life of the flesh is in the blood) :)

    "At conception the baby was sinful....this demands humanity. The above word translated as “conceived” actually is intertwined with the intimacy of the sexual act the heat of the passion which means from the instant of conception."

    I don't believe that unborn babies are sinful. We are born pure - since the essence of God has not been smeared by the World's imperfection yet. But the minute we breathe the air of the earth: corruption starts (based on needs and wants).
    I see what you mean...

    "The DNA of the being created at conception between a human male and human female is human with a soul...."

    That is your opinion, which is noted.

    LS, thank you ever so much for sharing your opinion with us :D! I missed the biblical verses already lol (only you)...

    Cheers

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  9. Hi KBguy :D!

    "I heard many guys who insisted that the gf should go for abortion because they are not prepare or ready for a marriage.
    Perhaps, it's both side."

    I have heard it too...unfortunately.

    "I think abortion should not be allow unless certain circustances. That's only my opinion."

    And thanks for sharing your opinion with us *bowing*!

    KB, thanks for having dropped by: it is always a pleasure to see you here :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hello Circulus Ciceronis :D!

    "Abortion is a despotic state of mind, even the dialectics of it, it is simply thorny."

    I agree.

    "So, why would a politician take pride in legislating about it and turn it into law? When it is legalized it holds a nation, and its people, hostages to the notion that life is disposable.When it is against the law it makes a country, and its citizens, abide by anguish and oppression."

    That is a good question; and you know that our government (in Portugal) took a deep pride in pseudo-legalising abortion here (I say "pseudo" because the law is deceiving: you may have an abortion until the 10th week of pregnancy; in a public hospital or a certified clinic [which we don't have yet] - this implies registration. Now, this would be fine if women wanted to registrate themselves when they wish to undergo this type of procedure...not to mention the fact that some women only realise that they are pregnant either at week 10 or after [those who have irregular periods], and by the time they wish to have an abortion [due to the legal process of actually doing it] the law forbids them from having one....so tell me; what good does this law do?)...and last month a woman, a nurse and a doctor were arrested for performing an illegal abortion...we are back to the start.
    This being said: you are right.

    "A miscarriage is devastating let alone an abortion. What to do then? Educate people to understand the consequences of such act (personal, social and morally)."

    Hear, Hear!

    "1- Steady relationship: men do certainly have a word to say about the life of the foetus."

    I agree.

    "2- Illicit relationship: they still have the right to participate in any decision-making."

    They have the moral right, but does the law protect them?

    "3- One night stand: they are entitled to an opinion as long as one knows the whereabouts of the guy."

    I agree.

    "Max, the Circulus Ciceronis congratulates your boldness."

    Thank you *bowing*!

    C.C. thank you ever so much for having shared your viewpoint on this issue :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  11. Hey Mel :D!

    "Finally an fun topic.....not. You can pick them....the tougher the topic the more likely you will take it on."

    LOL...why thank you...or not lol! How do you know I picked this topic? It could have been LS...lol...

    "I am having just a little trouble with the way you portrayed this topic. What I mean is the first 80% was a recap of the "Pro Life / Pro Choice" argument; all valid and all debatable. You laid it out very well. My issue is that you only gave a few lines to the subject of the topic" "Men's Rights.""

    *Bowing*! LOL...well, Mel...I confess I had a little agenda of my own with this article...but my giving a "few lines to the subject of the topic" bears an underlying critique...know what I mean?

    "Now to address this topic.....you may be surprised as to my opinion here."

    Yes, Mel you are a surprising man...we all know; but we have been debating for quite a while...are there any surprises left? :)

    "It is the rare man who gets so emotionally involved with the unborn child (BTW, I agree with the 5 week concept)."

    I understand what you mean...and it makes sense (you are the only one who agrees with me on that one so far).

    "I think the man is, and this may seem cruel, a sperm doner."

    LOL you are not being cruel...it is the truth. However, I like looking at certain men as much more than that...

    "I feel that the emotional attachment to the unborn child, for a man, comes with his commitment to the family. It is the woman who has to carry the child and deal with all that happens in the 9 months prior to the birth and the lifetime after."

    I see. So, are you saying that you are pro-choice?

    "I really don't think that the man has any rights in this regard. His rights begins with his commitment in the form of marriage or whatever commitment the woman will accept. Until then he has no rights!"

    Your opinion is noted *Max writing Mel's opinion down*...

    Mel, this was a fascinating opinion sharing (although we disagree on a few things, I am impressed): thank you :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hey D!

    :D

    "I wish it were illegal. But because it isn't, I think there should be laws about informing the father."

    It used to be illegal here in Portugal until 2006 (people would go to jail for it - mother and all), then they pseudo-legalised it (the law is deceiving: it is legal to have an abortion until the 10th week of pregnancy and it must be done upon registration in a public hospital) - result...they are still arresting people *nodding*.
    I also think the father should be consulted (whenever possible) - if the mother doesn't want the baby, then perhaps the father or the father's family wants it.

    "But the one problem with that, that I can see, is that you can't prove the fatherhood without doing genetic testing. I'm not sure they can do that at early stages of a pregnancy."

    Now they can do it, yes. If I am not mistaken (but if I am feel free to correct me) a Sweedish doctor found out a way to do this test through the mother's blood...it's incredible, isn't it?

    "I feel sorry for your friend whose girlfriend had the abortion. I would grieve that loss too. But frankly, maybe he will learn that he isn't just having sex with a woman, he is possibly creating life. Maybe it will make him think twice about the consequences of his actions."

    Thank you. I understand your appeal to responsibility...it is valid.

    "Maybe he will take more seriously his responsibilty with regards to procreation. He has been given this power, he should guard it more carefully, and only have sex with someone who he intends to raise a family with (and in my beliefs, they should be married first)."

    So, you don't believe in pre-marital sex?

    "We have to look at why we are sexual beings. It all comes down to procreation. Yes, there is enjoyment along the way. But that enjoyment is nature's way of ensuring that we procreate. The main reason for sex is procreation. Too many people today think the main reason is pleasure. Even though there may be pleasure involved, and other benefits such as bonding a man and women together, it still is about creating life."

    This is understandable (although I do not agree with it), but I have a question: and once the couple's years of procreation pass by...should they stop having sex?

    "But, he said, we should be just as shocked at the thought of someone going around campus randomly having sex."

    LOL that would be shocking indeed LOL *nodding*...

    "I think humans in general forget about this sacred responsibility, and only focus on their selfish pleasures."

    True.

    D, thank you so much for having shared your personal opinion with us :D!

    Cheers

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  13. Hey Amel :D!

    "Boy, what a topic!!! I honestly don't know what to say about this...but personally speaking, if I were raped and I got pregnant (HOPE NEVER!!!), I MAY consider doing abortion (in my head I'd be scared about raising the baby alone and also if I could despise the baby esp. if he/she looked like my rapist, what if the baby asked who the father is, etc.), though I don't know what my final decision would be since it's just too hard to know for sure."

    It is understandable. It is hard to know and to judge, isn't it?

    "Secondly, I tend to agree with Mel that most men probably don't feel the connection with the baby right from the start. I remember one friend whose husband is a VERY LOVING and caring person...he wrote about his experience when their baby was born and he said that he felt the baby was a "stranger" at first...unlike the mother who felt the connection already even before the baby was born."

    That is odd...the men I know were crazy about their kids even when they were inside their wife's belly. I even have a friend (who is pregnant) whose husband is so happy that he actually speaks to my friend's belly - because he says that he is communicating with his baby boy...so sweet!
    But maybe it depends on the level of wanting to have a kid: does the couple want it together, or does the wife want it more than the husband? I have another friend, whose mom didn't want to have her, she only had her to please her husband (result: the mother thought her own kid was a total stranger)...so it depends...

    "Now I'm stuck. No more words about this topic he he..."

    lol no, you were doing fine, girl!

    Amel, thank you so so much for sharing your thoughts on this and for giving such a sound example :D!

    Cheers

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  14. Hi Sheila :D!

    It's so nice to see you back here: what an honour *bowing*!

    "It is impossible to understand the despair of an unwanted pregnancy if you have never experienced it. Nobody should be forced -by anyone- to go through nine months of despair."

    I see...I never thought that bearing a child could be so despairing...but I can understand how/why this can happen.

    "There would be far fewer unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions, if birth control were readily available to those who need it, when they need it. The people who are against abortion are so frequently against freely available birth control."

    There are many methods to do birth control...it depends on which one you are speaking of.
    I have a personal issue with birth control pills because they kill a woman's body little by little - but if women want to take it...it is their choice.

    Sheila, thank you very much for having shared with us your thoughts on this :D!

    Cheers

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  15. Max,

    You asked if I am pro-choice. I have been back and forth on this so many times that I now absolutely refuse to be pained into someone else's corner. It is not as simple as "Pro Life" or Pro Choice". I agree with both and I disagree with both. Every situation is unique and a "yes" or "no" does not work.

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  16. Hi Max,

    How are you today?

    Another juicy topic. Controversy must be your middle name. It has a nice ring to it doesn't it?

    While that could be true that Soul is in the blood at 5 weeks, I don't interpret it to mean that Soul is necessarily preordained to incarnate. It could mean that Soul was only supposed to exist during that stint in time. It could mean that the mother/parents were settling a karmic debt by aborting. It could be a plethora of reasons.

    Abortion is such a tremendously personal choice and I think if women are considering it, they should consider arguments from both sides to give them both perspectives.

    I interviewed a doctor several years ago for an article I did on abortion and I understand the pain involved in making that decision. Like you mention, abortion is a serious undertaking and many women suffer from physical side effects and emotional turmoil that haunts them for the rest of their lives.

    On the other hand, several women feel they don't have any other choice but to abort and they are willing to incur any consequences.

    Worldwide there are approximately 42 Million/per year and about 115,000/per day.

    83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries. 52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

    1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

    An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

    Did you know that Marilyn Monroe had 12 abortions by the time she was 29! Her need to be loved was never satiated.

    Even with all of the stats, I think before a woman makes a decision, she should have a long talk with God and seek guidance, but ultimately it is her body and she has to take responsibility for what happens to it and inside it. (though contraception is a two way street)

    As far as the father having rights, I agree, he should have some rights in most cases, but since the woman carries the child, ultimately she has the power. I am not saying it is right, it is just the lay of the land.

    Unfortunately some women punish men by denying them their child and I wish I had an answer as to why?

    Max, you have summarized a hot button issue that needs more time and thought to fully ingest the ramifications, and it will continue to be controversial and I appreciate you putting it on the table.

    Happy Decision Cheers!

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  17. Abortion - a very sensitive topic.

    First, I am against it. 5weeks or less or more, abortion is abortion.

    Congressmen here in the Philippines are pushing a bill called Reproductive Health Bill. It's meant to educate men and woment about traditional (rhytm, etc) and modern (pills, condom, ligation, etc) contraceptives. For some reason, the poor families are the ones who have more children than the financially capable ones. And the only reason I can think of why they get pregnant every now and then is because since they have no jobs and spend the whole day and night at their homes, the couple get bored easily and find having sex to be a fun past time. The result? More children who can't eat enough. More children who can't go to school. More children get sick. And that Reproductive Health Bill is being criticized by the church, saying things like the bill is pro-abortion and is unGodly.

    UnGodly?!

    Though I get your point about the girl should have discussed it with her boyfriend, but like what I've said, aborrtion is still abortion.

    School days are over and I have more time to bloghop now. Have a great week, Max! ;o)

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  18. Mel,

    "It is not as simple as "Pro Life" or Pro Choice". I agree with both and I disagree with both. Every situation is unique and a "yes" or "no" does not work."

    That is a good answer...thank you for having offered it to me (I know it is a personal one) *bowing*!

    ReplyDelete
  19. Hello Lady A :D!

    "How are you today?"

    I am fine, thank you; and yourself?

    "Another juicy topic. Controversy must be your middle name. It has a nice ring to it doesn't it?"

    LOL LOL LOL indeed "Max Controversy Coutinho" LOL...it does have a nice ring to it: you are good!

    "While that could be true that Soul is in the blood at 5 weeks, I don't interpret it to mean that Soul is necessarily preordained to incarnate. It could mean that Soul was only supposed to exist during that stint in time."

    I see...the thing is: God decides that a certain Soul will reincarnate; if He decides that it is supposed to exist during that stint in time, then it will die either by natural causes inside the womb or once it is born - that IS His decision.
    When a human decides to terminate a healthy foetus by its own will, that is not God deciding.
    Humans are not pawns of a checkers board; they were gifted with Free Will (meaning that they choose, they make options that later on will bear consequences), although they are destined to fulfill a mission (which could be to kill but then is that person ready to admit that she/he was born to be the counter-balance of life, good and happiness?).

    "It could mean that the mother/parents were settling a karmic debt by aborting. It could be a plethora of reasons."

    I read (in a spiritist book) that aborting is opening a karmic debt, because the only Entity that can decide on life/death issues is the Creator.
    However, humans are free to choose what they want - yet they should know that their actions bear consequences (if not now, in the after-life or even beyond).

    "Abortion is such a tremendously personal choice and I think if women are considering it, they should consider arguments from both sides to give them both perspectives."

    I agree.

    "I interviewed a doctor several years ago for an article I did on abortion and I understand the pain involved in making that decision. Like you mention, abortion is a serious undertaking and many women suffer from physical side effects and emotional turmoil that haunts them for the rest of their lives."

    Oh yes...I have met a few women who have done it and poor souls...the guilt they carry inside, the pain...it is sad, really.

    "On the other hand, several women feel they don't have any other choice but to abort and they are willing to incur any consequences."

    That is true too...but many when facing the consequences: they cry & deep down they regret (even though they don't admit it).
    I know a lady who had an abortion, and she speaks lightly of it but in her eyes you can see it...

    "Worldwide there are approximately 42 Million/per year and about 115,000/per day."

    :O ...that is a lot of lost potential.

    "1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest;"

    Only one percent? That says a few things...

    "93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient)."

    I can't help but to feel a bit saddened...but that is the state of the world.

    "An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion."

    These are some serious stats...

    "Did you know that Marilyn Monroe had 12 abortions by the time she was 29! Her need to be loved was never satiated."

    No, I didn't. I used to have a neighbour who had had 19 abortions. Marilyn was an individual with serious emotional issues, wasn't she?

    "Even with all of the stats, I think before a woman makes a decision, she should have a long talk with God and seek guidance, but ultimately it is her body and she has to take responsibility for what happens to it and inside it. (though contraception is a two way street)"

    God is always a good guide; but even though He is some women prefer to follow their own impulses.
    On my Portuguese blog, a Brazilian reader shared Kahlil Gibran's words "our children are not our own, they only come through us; for like us, they belong to our Creator" ...

    "As far as the father having rights, I agree, he should have some rights in most cases, but since the woman carries the child, ultimately she has the power. I am not saying it is right, it is just the lay of the land."

    I understand your point of view...

    "Unfortunately some women punish men by denying them their child and I wish I had an answer as to why?"

    So true...I would like the answer to that question as well *nodding*!

    "Max, you have summarized a hot button issue that needs more time and thought to fully ingest the ramifications, and it will continue to be controversial and I appreciate you putting it on the table."

    Thank you, Alexys *bowing*! These issues must be addressed, they must be discussed in a civilised manner (with judgment-free arguments) if we are to become better humans.

    Lady A, thank you so much for this amazing comment :D!

    Tender smile Cheers

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  20. Hi Abelle :D!

    "Abortion - a very sensitive topic."

    It is indeed.

    "First, I am against it. 5weeks or less or more, abortion is abortion."

    It is noted :).

    "For some reason, the poor families are the ones who have more children than the financially capable ones. And the only reason I can think of why they get pregnant every now and then is because since they have no jobs and spend the whole day and night at their homes, the couple get bored easily and find having sex to be a fun past time."

    LOL LOL...I am sorry, I know this is a serious issue, but I couldn't avoid laughing (don't take me wrong)...I have been hearing this argument for years too. I have even heard that since the poor don't have TV they have fun making babies. This is too simplistic...
    Allow me to offer a thought: poor people may have more children because they are not distracted by materialism & consumerism (staying fit all the time, shopping all the time, travelling, showing off to friends and acquaintances etc all based in selfishness and vanity) because they are still busy taking care of their primary needs...

    "The result? More children who can't eat enough. More children who can't go to school. More children get sick. And that Reproductive Health Bill is being criticized by the church, saying things like the bill is pro-abortion and is unGodly."

    This is interesting...well, here in Portugal, all poor children go to school and eat (because the state and church institutions are there for them).
    The church is known for their resistance to birth control methods...

    "Though I get your point about the girl should have discussed it with her boyfriend, but like what I've said, aborrtion is still abortion."

    I understand your point of view...

    "School days are over and I have more time to bloghop now. Have a great week, Max! ;o)"

    :D those are great news! I hope Jeff is all right :D! And it will be great to see you here more often!
    Thanks, darling: have a great week yourself, Abelle :D!

    Darling, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing your opinion with all of us :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  21. Hi Max,

    I am lovely, (but you already know that ;D ) thanks for asking.

    "Max Controversy Coutinho"

    MCC - MCC Hammer. LOL.

    "I see...the thing is: God decides that a certain Soul will reincarnate; if He decides that it is supposed to exist during that stint in time, then it will die either by natural causes inside the womb or once it is born - that IS His decision."

    Yes.

    "When a human decides to terminate a healthy foetus by its own will, that is not God deciding."

    If we are all part of God, would you consider that if we make that decision to terminate, then it is also a part of God's decision? If God is really pulling all of the strings, then isn't God also pulling the plug?

    It's like England blaming America for certain things when they created America.

    "Humans are not pawns of a checkers board;"

    Totally agree!

    "...they were gifted with Free Will (meaning that they choose, they make options that later on will bear consequences), although they are destined to fulfill a mission (which could be to kill but then is that person ready to admit that she/he was born to be the counter-balance of life, good and happiness?)."

    Good question. No one wants to be the bad cop.

    "I read (in a spiritist book) that aborting is opening a karmic debt, because the only Entity that can decide on life/death issues is the Creator. However, humans are free to choose what they want - yet they should know that their actions bear consequences (if not now, in the after-life or even beyond)."

    Many people don't think about consequence, they think about immediate desire. I must repeat that a woman should make an informed decision and hopefully it WILL coinicide with God's will.

    "That is true too...but many when facing the consequences: they cry & deep down they regret (even though they don't admit it). I know a lady who had an abortion, and she speaks lightly of it but in her eyes you can see it..."

    I know they have to live with their decision.

    "No, I didn't. I used to have a neighbour who had had 19 abortions."

    WOW. Is that a record? I don't understand why she didn't get birth control after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.

    "Marilyn was an individual with serious emotional issues, wasn't she?"

    She was very fractured.

    "On my Portuguese blog, a Brazilian reader shared Kahlil Gibran's words "our children are not our own, they only come through us; for like us, they belong to our Creator" ..."

    I know those words well. Gibran was always a favorite of mine and lived in difficult times himself.

    "These issues must be addressed, they must be discussed in a civilised manner (with judgment-free arguments) if we are to become better humans."

    I appreciate the integrity of your debate and your debating prowess. You are right, just because people don't agree on all issues, doesn't mean they have to behave uncivilly. (Look at British parliament. They can tell you off and make you say, "Thank you sir.")

    Thank you sincerely for your everything. (I covered my bases.)

    Thank you Cheers!

    ReplyDelete
  22. Many people have opinions. It also makes sense to listen to the sound of silence of beings who do not.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Hey Max, another thought provoking and I might add controversial post, wow you sure know how to pic em,lol.

    I am against abortion regardless of time, I believe the baby has a soul at conception, therefore the male female rights don't really come into play, now mind you if I were a pregnant women that had been raped I might not think the same way.

    ReplyDelete
  24. About the friend I'm talking about...he wanted to have the kid even before the wife wanted to have the kid and he started talking to him even when he was still inside the belly...but still the minute he was born, he wasn't connected to him just yet. So I don't know...

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hi Max,

    The only man who deserves to be informed is the husband (for some spouses do it without advising their husbands); the other guys have no right whatsoever.
    Personally, I am against that sad procedure *nodding*.

    Good job, darling!

    Ciao

    ReplyDelete
  26. Hi Lady A,

    "I am lovely, (but you already know that ;D ) thanks for asking."

    LOL LOL yes, I already knew that ;D! Don't mention it.

    "MCC - MCC Hammer. LOL."

    ROFL...ROFL....ROFL...excellent!! Speaking of MC Hammer, where has he been? Gosh, did he make people dance!

    "If we are all part of God, would you consider that if we make that decision to terminate, then it is also a part of God's decision? If God is really pulling all of the strings, then isn't God also pulling the plug?"

    Aha...good question! God ordered us "you shall not kill" meaning that we are not to premeditately take someone else's life - which is what it happens when we plan and decide to actually terminate someone.
    God is not pulling all of the strings (otherwise we wouldn't have Free Will).

    "It's like England blaming America for certain things when they created America."

    LOL LOL...does England blame America for certain things? I thought that was France...LOL...

    "No one wants to be the bad cop."

    No, no one wants to...

    "Many people don't think about consequence, they think about immediate desire. I must repeat that a woman should make an informed decision and hopefully it WILL coinicide with God's will."

    True. Fair enough :D!

    "I know they have to live with their decision."

    They do...and that is why I tell people "it is not our place to judge".

    "WOW. Is that a record? I don't understand why she didn't get birth control after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc."

    I don't know if it...but it seems a bit too much. I don't either, girl...I don't either...*nodding*.

    "[Gibran] (...) lived in difficult times himself."

    Who hasn't? Everybody has lived in difficult times at some point in life (the circumstances vary, but the suffering is there just the same).

    "I appreciate the integrity of your debate and your debating prowess. You are right, just because people don't agree on all issues, doesn't mean they have to behave uncivilly. (Look at British parliament. They can tell you off and make you say, "Thank you sir.")"

    Thank you *bowing*! Exactly - one of my closest friends is pro-choice yet that is not an impediment for a strong friendship and mutual respect. LOL LOL LOL that is why I love the British!

    "Thank you sincerely for your everything. (I covered my bases.)"

    Girl, don't mention it :)!

    Shaking Hands Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  27. Hi Liara :D!

    "Many people have opinions. It also makes sense to listen to the sound of silence of beings who do not."

    True. I totally hear you!

    Liara, such a simple comment yet deep, for which I thank you a million *bowing*!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  28. Hey Bob :D!

    "another thought provoking and I might add controversial post, wow you sure know how to pic em,lol."

    lol Thank you, Lord of the Astropics lol...*bowing*!

    "I am against abortion regardless of time, I believe the baby has a soul at conception, therefore the male female rights don't really come into play, now mind you if I were a pregnant women that had been raped I might not think the same way."

    Good. I understand what you mean.

    Bob, thank you for sharing your views on this controversial issue; I appreciate it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  29. Hey Amel,

    "About the friend I'm talking about...he wanted to have the kid even before the wife wanted to have the kid and he started talking to him even when he was still inside the belly...but still the minute he was born, he wasn't connected to him just yet. So I don't know..."

    I don't know either...only God, girl...only God.

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  30. Hi Dux!

    Welcome to the MAX :D!

    "The only man who deserves to be informed is the husband (for some spouses do it without advising their husbands); the other guys have no right whatsoever."

    That is what I call a straightforward opinion. You and Mel share the same opinion (only the two of you so far).
    So, there are married women who have abortions without advising their husbands, eh? And the kids are their husbands'?

    "Personally, I am against that sad procedure *nodding*."

    I understand you well, my dear friend.

    "Good job, darling!"

    Thank you, adorable D! :)

    Dux, thank you so much for having joined this debate and for sharing your opinion with us :D!

    Ciao

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hi Max! Yes, some will argue until they’re blue in the face about where life begins but we all know once a cell has been fertilized and goes full term, the fruit of their loins will be like you or me when we were born!

    Touch wood, healthy, kicking and screaming!

    Deciding on whether to terminate a pregnancy must obviously be heart breaking for the mother.

    Hopefully she is in a loving relationship and is supported in everyway by her partner and family, no matter what happens.

    Take Care,
    Peter

    ReplyDelete
  32. Max, I think you bring up all good points. Again, there is trouble is our labeling process, for MOST of us can not be labeled as pro-life or pro-choice as if we are purists or absolutists.

    I think it would help if science could further elucidate when life "formally" begins, but I don't know if they can. The "blood flow" theory does not convince me, as we can't prove for sure that the incipient soul is not developing in the first dividing cells.

    So after reading your thoughtful post, I stand with my previous position: that abortion is not to be taken lightly, that it indeed may be an illicit taking of life in some circumstances, and mostly, that it SHOULD, nevertheless, be an option for women in many circumstances. Worth mentioning is that use of appropriate birth control methods would avoid a lot of problems further down the road.

    I agree with you that men have rights. But along with that comes their responsibility to be monogamous and use birth control whenever it might help prevent an unwanted pregnancy!

    ReplyDelete
  33. Max,Max,Max:

    You would have to write about such a sticky subject - one as difficult to argue as the Bible itself. You give me a headache, so shame on you. But here are just a couple of comments:

    I do not ever want to see abortion used as a contraceptive tool. There are many good tools already on the market, so use one of them. So if you're out in the backseat of a car someplace, or sneaking away to a quiet little motel room at lunch time, and you happen to let passion get in the way of common sense, I have very little sympathy for you, or the man. If you're an idiot - use a condom, not a scalpel.

    While it's true that it's a woman's body, and I won't deny that truth, it's also true that none of us have the absolute right to do anything to our bodies that we may what to do. For instance, we must wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. Why? It's my head, therefore it's my right to brutally crush my head on the rough pavement if I want to. Not true. In our wisdom, we have passed laws that restrict us from doing just that. Why? Because such laws promote the public health and welfare.

    Of course, there are many instances where we give up our fundamental rights for the betterment of society at large. Motorcycle helmets are only one example. But the real questions is: is abortion one of those rights? Removing the religious aspect of the argument, I have to say yes. However, it must come with strict guidelines, guidelines carefully designed to promote human health and welfare.

    Along the lines of this subject, I've often wondered what would happen if a single woman went to a fertility clinic with the desire to have a baby. The clinic does it's duty and the woman gets pregnant, but instead of conceiving one little gift from Heaven, she has brought life to eight little eggs. Upon finding this out, she decides she wants an abortion. Dump the whole Easter basket. What do we tell her?

    Happy trails.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hi Max,

    When MC Hammer is not on reality shows, he is a minister. At the end of his sermons he leads everyone in the Hammer dance. LOL.

    OMG. I just found out that Mariah Carey is trying to use your MCC symbol. (Mariah Carey Cannon) How dare she? That is YOURS. Maybe we should have trademarked it.

    "God is not pulling all of the strings (otherwise we wouldn't have Free Will)."

    Isn't our free will part of God's will for us?

    Heart Hug Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Max,
    You asked a couple of questions in response to my comment. In answer to your first question, I do not believe in premarital sex. The act of sex is one of bonding. I think that when people randomly "bond" with others that they do not plan on having a committed relationship with, it messes with their psychology. The world teaches that we must "try before we buy", but I don't really think sexual incompatibilty is as common as people would like to think, and I don't believe we need to try out someone's sexual abilities in order to love them more. I believe that sex is something so sacred, so special, that it should be saved for inside the bonds of marriage, inside the bonds of committment, where it can be fully expressed with a life long mate, not just a casual partner. Even many animals mate for life. We are an intelligent species, we should be more careful with our ability to procreate. This is a god-given gift, not an inheritance to be casually used. God has given to us a little bit of godhood by giving us the ability to procreate. But many people treat it as simply a built in pleasure factory, and they treat babies as unwanted baggage. They want the pleasure, but they want to abort the consequence of it.

    In answer to your second question, although sex is about procreation, it is, as I mentioned above, also a bonding experience for husband and wife. It helps to keep them close to each other, after their child bearing years are over. That bonding experience can't be taken lightly. It is real, and it is vital to a marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I'm pro-choice but to be honest, I don't think there will ever be a perfect solution when it comes to abortion. I hope partners are asked for their opinions because of course it matters.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Hi Pete :D!

    "Yes, some will argue until they’re blue in the face about where life begins but we all know once a cell has been fertilized and goes full term, the fruit of their loins will be like you or me when we were born!"

    This is so sweet! :)

    "Touch wood, healthy, kicking and screaming!"

    Oh yes, and what a wonderful moment that is!

    "Deciding on whether to terminate a pregnancy must obviously be heart breaking for the mother."

    I would say that it must be...I wouldn't want to be in that position *nodding*.

    "Hopefully she is in a loving relationship and is supported in everyway by her partner and family, no matter what happens."

    *nodding in agreement*! However this doesn't always happen, right?

    Peter, as always, your comment was amazing: thank you :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  38. Hey Lynda :D!

    "Max, I think you bring up all good points."

    Thank you *bowing*!

    "Again, there is trouble is our labeling process, for MOST of us can not be labeled as pro-life or pro-choice as if we are purists or absolutists."

    Indeed....

    "I think it would help if science could further elucidate when life "formally" begins, but I don't know if they can. The "blood flow" theory does not convince me, as we can't prove for sure that the incipient soul is not developing in the first dividing cells."

    Like I say: only God knows! Fair enough, darling!

    "So after reading your thoughtful post, I stand with my previous position: that abortion is not to be taken lightly, that it indeed may be an illicit taking of life in some circumstances, and mostly, that it SHOULD, nevertheless, be an option for women in many circumstances. Worth mentioning is that use of appropriate birth control methods would avoid a lot of problems further down the road."

    I see what you mean...
    Today I was having a conversation about this; and I was saying that some women may decide to have the children (even if not to keep them) but then when they look at the institutions that keep these children and consider the poor job they do (i.e. sexual abuse), I don't know if I wouldn't understand why they'd make such a harsh decision *nodding*.
    The only solution for this (as for so many other problems) would be a stable family system: when a family is united, they get to keep and take care of each other's baby (like they do in Africa)...but since the family concept is bankrupt nowadays, things get a bit difficult...

    "I agree with you that men have rights. But along with that comes their responsibility to be monogamous and use birth control whenever it might help prevent an unwanted pregnancy!"

    I hear you!

    Lynda, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this; I loved it :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hey Swu :D!

    "Max,Max,Max:"

    lol yes...

    "You would have to write about such a sticky subject - one as difficult to argue as the Bible itself. You give me a headache, so shame on you."

    LOL I am so sorry, Swu...It won't happen again...at least so soon LOL....

    "I do not ever want to see abortion used as a contraceptive tool. There are many good tools already on the market, so use one of them. So if you're out in the backseat of a car someplace, or sneaking away to a quiet little motel room at lunch time, and you happen to let passion get in the way of common sense, I have very little sympathy for you, or the man. If you're an idiot - use a condom, not a scalpel."

    I hear you.

    "While it's true that it's a woman's body, and I won't deny that truth, it's also true that none of us have the absolute right to do anything to our bodies that we may what to do. For instance, we must wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. Why? It's my head, therefore it's my right to brutally crush my head on the rough pavement if I want to. Not true. In our wisdom, we have passed laws that restrict us from doing just that. Why? Because such laws promote the public health and welfare."

    I agree with you. I feel like standing up and clapping, but it I mustn't...yet know, that I liked this section...

    "Of course, there are many instances where we give up our fundamental rights for the betterment of society at large. Motorcycle helmets are only one example. But the real questions is: is abortion one of those rights? Removing the religious aspect of the argument, I have to say yes. However, it must come with strict guidelines, guidelines carefully designed to promote human health and welfare."

    This is very interesting, Swu...and that is an excellent question!

    "Along the lines of this subject, I've often wondered what would happen if a single woman went to a fertility clinic with the desire to have a baby. The clinic does it's duty and the woman gets pregnant, but instead of conceiving one little gift from Heaven, she has brought life to eight little eggs. Upon finding this out, she decides she wants an abortion. Dump the whole Easter basket. What do we tell her?"

    I know what I would tell her...

    Swu, spectacular comment!! And I gave you a headache? My God...what a headache can produce...thank you *bowing*!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  40. Hi Alexys,

    "When MC Hammer is not on reality shows, he is a minister. At the end of his sermons he leads everyone in the Hammer dance. LOL."

    LOL LOL LOL...*nodding*!

    "OMG. I just found out that Mariah Carey is trying to use your MCC symbol. (Mariah Carey Cannon) How dare she? That is YOURS. Maybe we should have trademarked it."

    Poor Mariah...let her have it! We will find a way of dealing with her later on...don't worry LOL...

    "Isn't our free will part of God's will for us?"

    God's Will is the end of the road. Free Will is what we choose to do to get to the end of the road.

    Big Hug Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Hi D!

    "The world teaches that we must "try before we buy", but I don't really think sexual incompatibilty is as common as people would like to think, and I don't believe we need to try out someone's sexual abilities in order to love them more."

    Sexual compatibility can occur even with someone we don't love. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
    Incompatibility may occur with someone we love.
    The question is "which maintains a marriage: love or sex?"....the answer to this will vary from person to person and some people may even say that none sustains a union.

    "I believe that sex is something so sacred, so special, that it should be saved for inside the bonds of marriage, inside the bonds of committment, where it can be fully expressed with a life long mate, not just a casual partner."

    This is romantic.
    I am one of those who believe in pre-marital sex, but not because "one must try before buying", but because I don't believe in virgin marriages. I think these type of unions enslave women (and men). I wish I had the time to explain better - but perhaps one day I will write about it.

    "They want the pleasure, but they want to abort the consequence of it."

    *nodding in agreement*...

    "In answer to your second question, although sex is about procreation, it is, as I mentioned above, also a bonding experience for husband and wife. It helps to keep them close to each other, after their child bearing years are over. That bonding experience can't be taken lightly. It is real, and it is vital to a marriage."

    I hear you.

    D, thank you so much for answering my questions; I appreciated it :D! You are fascinating!

    ReplyDelete
  42. Hi Zhu :D!

    "I'm pro-choice but to be honest, I don't think there will ever be a perfect solution when it comes to abortion. I hope partners are asked for their opinions because of course it matters."

    I hear you. Indeed...

    Zhu, cherie...thank you for your input :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  43. Hey it's really interesting reading your side of the argument after haing read the same topic on Livingsword's blog. You're a good writer :-)

    ReplyDelete
  44. PS On the question, does the man feel any attachment to the unborn child, I would say an emphatic yes, he does, in many cases. Most of the men I know love children and have been so excited to become fathers (when their turn has arrived!).

    ReplyDelete
  45. Hey Fikalo :D!

    Welcome to the MAX!!

    "Hey it's really interesting reading your side of the argument after haing read the same topic on Livingsword's blog. You're a good writer :-)"

    I am glad you crossed over :D! Thank you *bowing*! You are kind :D!

    Thanks for having dropped by, and know that you are extremely welcome here: any time :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  46. Hey again :D!

    "PS On the question, does the man feel any attachment to the unborn child, I would say an emphatic yes, he does, in many cases. Most of the men I know love children and have been so excited to become fathers (when their turn has arrived!)."

    Exactly! I agree with you...at least the men I know had (and have) this type of behaviour as well...
    So, I am still trying to figure out if men that behave outside this pattern are men who didn't want to become parents (deep down, I mean) or if there is some kind of trauma that takes over them...don't know yet...

    ReplyDelete
  47. That's definitely a deep issue. I wouldn't have a clue what's going on in a man's brain when he's upset about having children! Might be an issue for Dr Phil!

    ReplyDelete
  48. Fikalo,

    LOL LOL Dr. Phil? LOL LOL that was a good one! I like your sense of humour!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Personally, I don't think pro choice is a concept just related to abortion. I have free will and the right to choose how to live my life. Whether that is deciding what religion, or what flavor of milk shake. And everything in between. I, personally, choose not to allow abortion to become a choice in my life. If I become pregnant through choice or negligence, then I have a choice~ to raise the child or let someone else more suited to the task raise the child. For me, abortion is not a choice. That does not mean that I will force my personal choices onto others. They also have free will and the ability to make choices whether I agree or not. Making a baby is not an ice cube. you don't just let it thaw out to become water again. Once conceived, a fetus is a human. It can't be reversed. Just terminated.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hello Christina :D!

    Welcome!!

    "Personally, I don't think pro choice is a concept just related to abortion. I have free will and the right to choose how to live my life. Whether that is deciding what religion, or what flavor of milk shake. And everything in between."

    I understand...

    "I, personally, choose not to allow abortion to become a choice in my life. If I become pregnant through choice or negligence, then I have a choice~ to raise the child or let someone else more suited to the task raise the child. For me, abortion is not a choice."

    I agree with your position.

    "That does not mean that I will force my personal choices onto others. They also have free will and the ability to make choices whether I agree or not."

    Absolutely!

    "Making a baby is not an ice cube. you don't just let it thaw out to become water again. Once conceived, a fetus is a human. It can't be reversed. Just terminated."

    *nodding in agreement*...

    Christina, thank you ever so much for your comment! I hope to see more of you among us :D!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
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