Bending the Protocol



...Yes, I know it is not politically correct to openly criticise the Islamic Fundamentalists (except when they bomb the western world)...however there is a thing or two I’d like to share...yes, sir...I understand...I will take it into consideration...thank you... 

I often watch the Doha Debates (on BBC World); because I am very much interested in knowing the opinion of the Muslim world on current issues.
The show is well set up, the questions brought to the table are good...the TV programme endeavours to reveal how open the Muslim world, in the Middle East, is to debate and willing to critique itself. However, it seems to me that the conversations always converge to the same idea: trash the Western Life-Style.

So far so good. I mean we know that we are not perfect, and we welcome criticism. However when the ones criticising us are those who benefit from our system and life-style; we can’t stop but wondering “Why don’t you go and live in the Muslim World, then?”

The Doha Debates always invites Muslim women (with squeaky voices) to defend the radical points of Islam (Note: former Christian women, converted to Islam & living either in England or the US); and complain of how unfair, hypocritical, immoral westerners are; and how much the Muslims have been humiliated by them. Then they pick on the Palestinian issue to attack Israel, even if the topic at hand is not the Israeli-Arab conflict. So, where did the willingness to self-critique go?

Moderate Muslims (often the ones living in Western countries), always defend that the present Islamist politics is belligerent and goes against the very definition of Islam (peace); and that Muslims around the world should join hands and turn things around – now, this argument (the right one, in my opinion) scares the few (yet more sounding) Islamic radicals in the room, and around the world...it is as if their culture is being threatened. But is it, in sooth? I’d say that the moderates are proposing an enriching change (so that we can all live in peace).
The problem is, the radicals are always extremely well prepared with sound (yet insane) arguments to sustain their thesis; whereas the moderates (although with reason on their side) fail to transmit the right words that stick to people’s minds.

Radicals accuse us of having humiliating them, and use it as an excuse for trashing our life-style; bombing our cities; threatening our peace; injecting fear and paranoia into our societies; and gagging westerners (i.e. journalists, artists & thinkers). 
I could expand on this, but since this is not a political thesis; I’ll address just one more crucial element...
Should the radical Islamic world really speak of humiliation? Because when I hear that word, I think of:
  1. Black people: slavery, cultural assimilation, discrimination, racism & disrespect (for example, in Sudan; a black African country; the Muslims want to see it “Zorka free” meaning “free of Negro Africans”. Result: the present genocide occurring there).
  2. Jewish people: slavery, expulsion from their own land, persecution, forced conversions, discrimination, racism, Holocaust, disrespect.
  3. North American Indians: misappropriation, cultural assimilation, ostracism, discrimination, disrespect. 
  4. East Indians: racism, disrespect, despisal.
  5. Latin American Indians: forced conversions, discrimination, disrespect, forced acquisition of Western diseases.
Do we see these people using their stark history as an excuse to blow themselves up & terrorise others? No.
So I suggest the following: get over it, stop being belligerent, stop disrespecting your women, implement democracy and develop your nations (on every level). 

And to think that, in school, we were taught that the Arabs were great conquerors, honourable adversaries; artists; fair, proud people, and intellectuals whose legacy is very much present in the Portuguese culture. However even the brave Arabs, of the past, would vomit before the mass victimisation that has become the Muslim world. 

Image: Consolation by Alajos Györgyl 

Comments

  1. This is of course a delicate subject, but as always you have dealt with it in a good and balanced way, so I do agree with you.

    You know my saying: 'Make blogs, not Wars' and that understanding and dialogue is important to build down religious and cultural barriers.

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  2. Hey Renny :D!

    "This is of course a delicate subject, but as always you have dealt with it in a good and balanced way, so I do agree with you."

    Yes, it is...but it needs to be addressed. Thank you, my friend *bowing*!

    "You know my saying: 'Make blogs, not Wars' and that understanding and dialogue is important to build down religious and cultural barriers."

    Yes, I know your saying...and I agree with it. Amen to that!

    Renny, thank you so much for having brought your light to this article :D!

    Cheers

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  3. I don't usually get involved in politics, but this is not politics. This is truth and very well said!

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  4. Hey Beetle :D!

    "I don't usually get involved in politics, but this is not politics. This is truth and very well said!"

    Thank you *bowing*!

    Beetle, thank you so much for having dropped by :D! I was just wondering: are you Babs (the Beetle) or are you a different Beetle?

    Cheers

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  5. Hi Max,
    What a delicious debate you have cooked for us.

    Love the photo too. I often wonder what the Middle East really knows about the Westeners - and how much we really know about them?

    If they learn from what they see on TV, then we look like a bunch of idiots. If we learn from how they are portrayed in films, then they look just as bad.

    I think that they have their own preconceived ideas about us, no matter what we say or do. It all goes back to that same debate, "My God is bigger than your God, therefore I am right in my assessment of you."

    Do they really have squeaky voices? (I am laughing inside becauase I don't want to disturb the other patrons here at the library.)

    Suffice it to say that all races, cultures, nationalities have had their dark night of Soul. (and many continue the darkness)

    We have to work on solutions to stop genocide and bloodshed and to forge peace for ALL men. I know it sounds lofty, but I believe it can be done. We are all better than this lower world stuff.

    This is an exceptional piece. Really exceptional! Hats off! Well done! Good job! Kudos!

    Well Done Cheers!

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  6. The film, Slumdog Millionnaire offers a particular perspective into these lines of thought. What insight do you gain from sources of popular culture outside news? Each vision offered by media offers its own bias. To move to detach from comparing and noticing differences is a challenge. Identifying common threads is always possible. Love for instance, is universal, but perception and awareness of this concept, is not.

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  7. Thought provoking. Love the whole blog. Great artwork.

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  8. Hi my Max!
    Yes sometimes there are things which i don't agree with or approve about the western style but not like a muslim , like a human. But i can't say that Western style is thrash". How can it be?
    Since when the "civilization" become a thrash? If so, then why you immigrate to West and leave everything behind you?

    I live in Istanbul and benefit from all the technologies and advantages of being and Istanbullian and Western. I agree with you Max because even those people not only criticise the way of West but also abusing it.

    You know i'm a Turkish muslim but i never and ever defend even a small thing by sheltering being a muslim.

    They're the creators of chaos and again they're the ones complaining about it.

    For example, if you ask them, they're against to porn and bla bla bla...But when polices raid their houses, they reach porn videos more than available in dvd stores.

    Hey Muslims!The ones who claim that Islam is wiggery! No need to trick each other!

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  9. Hello Max!

    Your article is awesome! We just loved it!

    Doha Debates is, in so many ways, an awkward programme: the guests (radicals and moderates) and the voters.

    Radicals don't debate; they squawk; they play with the public's feelings and by using manipulative words they instigate outrage. And to top the divisive behaviour, they turn the core of Western rule of law (freedom) into mockery; by misusing it as they feel fit.

    Moderates attempt to pass their ideas by using reason (which has been proved to be a flop for we know that Muslims are all emotional); then they get easily shocked by the noisy rhetoric and fall into that vociferous web tangled by the radicals.

    When speaking of humiliation, you forgot to include one people: the Kurds. Can you imagine if they would blow themselves up, among innocents, in Turkey, Iran and Iraq?

    Most of the time Voters, in Doha Debates, reward the radicals, so...what to do when the mental diarrhoea becomes the trend?

    Congratulations of the changes made on your blog.

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  10. Max, this is an excellent and rational disclosure of your thinking on this troubling subject.

    There is much I could add in the way of echoing your perception.

    The core of my own thinking would be that we cannot expect rational thought from those particular folks who feel so negative and angry that any view towards a positive future gives way to obsessive litanies of past wounds and woes, divorced from any rational context or perspective of the larger human experience.

    There is absolutely no reason or excuse for murder or genocide, which are occurring in so many societies around the world. To commit it in the name of religion, is the worst crime of all.

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  11. Hi Alexys :D!

    "What a delicious debate you have cooked for us."

    lol yes, I was in the cooking mood when I wrote this one *nodding*...

    "Love the photo too. I often wonder what the Middle East really knows about the Westeners - and how much we really know about them?"

    It is adorable, isn't it? Oh, they know enough. Remember that they have family spread all over the world. Well, in my case, I know them very well: I went to school with Muslims, I have Muslim friends (from Mozambique) and I have Muslims in my family...and that is why I know that it is possible to live in peace with them, if they eradicate the radicals.

    "If they learn from what they see on TV, then we look like a bunch of idiots. If we learn from how they are portrayed in films, then they look just as bad."

    LOL LOL well, what it is portrayed on TV is most of the times a sheer stereotype (of both sides).

    "I think that they have their own preconceived ideas about us, no matter what we say or do. It all goes back to that same debate, "My God is bigger than your God, therefore I am right in my assessment of you.""

    Perhaps, but like I say...they know us well. At least, they know the Europeans well...for example, when Portugal was formed, in 1143, the Arabs were still in the south of (what today is) our country (Alentejo and Algarve - names given by them). They were also in the south of Spain. And mind you that by this time the Spanish had already expelled them from a vast part of their territory by pushing them to south.
    That debate is ludicrous...specially because God is One and Only; there is not several Gods to fit each religion (this is an absurd).

    "Do they really have squeaky voices? (I am laughing inside becauase I don't want to disturb the other patrons here at the library.)"

    LOL they do have irritating squeaky voices...sometimes I just feel like singing "Shut up, just shut up shut up! Shut up, just shut up shut up!" LOL...*nodding*.
    You did well not to laugh before the other patrons...lol...

    "Suffice it to say that all races, cultures, nationalities have had their dark night of Soul. (and many continue the darkness)"

    True! But they have moved on, they have evolved and developed their nations...and that's what matters.

    "We have to work on solutions to stop genocide and bloodshed and to forge peace for ALL men. I know it sounds lofty, but I believe it can be done. We are all better than this lower world stuff."

    Amen to that, sista!! I also believe it can be done, if we REALLY want it! I totally agree with you: we are all better than this!

    "This is an exceptional piece. Really exceptional! Hats off! Well done! Good job! Kudos!"

    Thank you so much *bowing*! *Throwing kisses and roses*!

    Lady A, thank you for this outstanding comment...I always look forward to our conversations :D!

    Outstanding Cheers

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  12. Hello Liara :D!

    Welcome!!

    "The film, Slumdog Millionnaire offers a particular perspective into these lines of thought. What insight do you gain from sources of popular culture outside news? Each vision offered by media offers its own bias."

    I agree that the media is bias (about almost everything). I read yesterday, a journalistic piece where its author confesses that telling the truth is boring *nodding*.
    I gain my insights through the people I know, and through my own family (that, thank God, is very eclectic).

    "To move to detach from comparing and noticing differences is a challenge. Identifying common threads is always possible. Love for instance, is universal, but perception and awareness of this concept, is not."

    You have a point. I think that the perception and awareness of Love is Universal, but people are driven not by Love, but by their own agendas. They know we can all live in peace, yet they choose destruction (to serve their own interests).

    Liara, thank you for having dropped by and shared your thoughts with us; I loved them! And know that you are extremely welcome, here :D!

    Cheers

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  13. Hello Beth :D!

    Welcome!!

    "Thought provoking. Love the whole blog. Great artwork."

    Thanks, darling *bowing*! I am glad you liked it! :D

    Beth, it was great to see you here (since we only communicate on BlogsCatalog); thanks for having dropped by :D!

    Cheers

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  14. Hi Burcu :D!

    "Yes sometimes there are things which i don't agree with or approve about the western style but not like a muslim , like a human."

    I don't agree with many things in the Western culture either (sometimes I feel like picking the best of every culture and mix it in a pot to create a whole new culture...but I am suspicious that new issues would arise lol).

    "Since when the "civilization" become a thrash? If so, then why you immigrate to West and leave everything behind you?"

    It is not. That is a very good question, darling!

    "I live in Istanbul and benefit from all the technologies and advantages of being and Istanbullian and Western. I agree with you Max because even those people not only criticise the way of West but also abusing it."

    I totally hear you!

    "You know i'm a Turkish muslim but i never and ever defend even a small thing by sheltering being a muslim."

    Yes, I know...you are one of my Muslim friends :)!

    "They're the creators of chaos and again they're the ones complaining about it."

    What a paradox *nodding*!

    "For example, if you ask them, they're against to porn and bla bla bla...But when polices raid their houses, they reach porn videos more than available in dvd stores."

    Ah, it is like drinking...right? *nodding*...

    Burcu, my darling, thank you for having brought your view into this discussion. You are the proof that we can all live in peace; that it is possible! :D

    Cheers

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  15. Hello Circulus Ciceronis :D!

    "Your article is awesome! We just loved it!"

    Thank you so much *bowing*! I feel honoured!

    "Doha Debates is, in so many ways, an awkward programme: the guests (radicals and moderates) and the voters."

    I must agree with you. Its spirit is good, but the show per se doesn't live up to its core.
    It has many subtleties...for example, by inviting Muslim women, who live in Western countries, they are telling us that women in the Middle East have no voice (it would be nice to see Muslim women, from the Middle East participating in those debates). Another thing, the moderates are either from Western countries of from Kuwait...what is the message behind this?
    I could go on and on with examples of its subtleties...

    "Radicals don't debate; they squawk; they play with the public's feelings and by using manipulative words they instigate outrage. And to top the divisive behaviour, they turn the core of Western rule of law (freedom) into mockery; by misusing it as they feel fit."

    True, so true...I have noticed that they squawk as a means of intimidating the moderates (who always fall for this) and distracting those who may be questioning their insane arguments. I agree with you.

    "Moderates attempt to pass their ideas by using reason (which has been proved to be a flop for we know that Muslims are all emotional); then they get easily shocked by the noisy rhetoric and fall into that vociferous web tangled by the radicals."

    Absolutely...and not only they get shocked, but you can actually perceive how intimidated they feel when contradicted by the radicals.
    For example, in the last debate (January), an Italian Imam and a Londoner former Islamist were the moderate ones: what they were saying was logical and more than acceptable; but the Italian Imam's English was poor (so he couldn't defend his position properly) and way the former Islamist was defending his thesis was as if he felt guilty for not being an Islamist any longer (although he knows that what he used to do was wrong)...now, I wonder if he knows that the audience feels these things, thus completely obliterating the moderate message.

    "When speaking of humiliation, you forgot to include one people: the Kurds. Can you imagine if they would blow themselves up, among innocents, in Turkey, Iran and Iraq?"

    You are right...I did: thank you for having completed the list :D! However, there are also the problematic Kurdish groups in Turkey (PKK and the TAK) that while fighting for the liberation of Kurdistan occasionally do hurt innocents (but this is a different story and topic).

    "Most of the time Voters, in Doha Debates, reward the radicals, so...what to do when the mental diarrhoea becomes the trend?"

    Excellent question: what to do when the mental diarrhoea becomes the trend?

    "Congratulations of the changes made on your blog."

    Thank you *bowing*! I am glad you liked it :)!

    C.C, thank you ever so much for this outstanding input: I loved it! Always great to have you here :D!

    Cheers

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  16. Hi Lynda :D!

    "Max, this is an excellent and rational disclosure of your thinking on this troubling subject."

    Thank you so much, darling *Bowing*!

    "The core of my own thinking would be that we cannot expect rational thought from those particular folks who feel so negative and angry that any view towards a positive future gives way to obsessive litanies of past wounds and woes, divorced from any rational context or perspective of the larger human experience."

    Beautifully said *standing ovation*! So, how can peace be reached with these particular folks?

    "There is absolutely no reason or excuse for murder or genocide, which are occurring in so many societies around the world."

    I couldn't agree more with you! It is utterly inexcusable!

    "To commit it in the name of religion, is the worst crime of all."

    Absolutely!!

    Lynda, as always your thoughts were brilliantly fantastic and very much appreciated...thank you *bowing*! I am still nodding in utter agreement with your words...

    Cheers

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  17. Max, cheers to you, and hugs too, for getting us to talk about things that matter!

    As for how to get or make peace, I don't know. We can't legislate it, and if we teach it, we have to live by example! Not an easy task. If one looks even at our interpersonal relationships, it's easy to see how fragile and reactive we are. How pathetic...that the human species is still in its infancy. Yet I aspire to a better time--and the highest integrity and level of being and conscience in each of us.

    Maybe if we continue to inhabit the earth for several more eons, we will evolve...

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  18. Max,
    Another great topic. I'm afraid that the radical Muslim World cannot enter into a rational debate with anyone. They have grown up HATING the Western world, especially Israel. They are dogmatic in their thinking no matter how "insane" it may be.

    However, it IS up to the moderate Muslim world to take things into their own hands and deal with the radicals. If they don't, they will be caught up in the crossfire.

    It is becomes both a moral and a rational question. Hypothetically, would you stand by and do nothing if your brother murders innocent people as you rationalize it by saying that "he is my brother and I must stand with him."

    The moderates have to develop a conscience and say "enough is enough!" If not, they risk being lumped into the same category as the radicals.

    This is very hard for the moderate Muslims, but they MUST choose "right" over "blood".

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  19. Lynda,

    "Max, cheers to you, and hugs too, for getting us to talk about things that matter!"

    Thank you so much for your kindness, darling :D and *hug*!

    "As for how to get or make peace, I don't know. We can't legislate it, and if we teach it, we have to live by example!"

    Well said *bowing*!

    "Not an easy task. If one looks even at our interpersonal relationships, it's easy to see how fragile and reactive we are. How pathetic...that the human species is still in its infancy. Yet I aspire to a better time--and the highest integrity and level of being and conscience in each of us."

    I agree: it is not. It is pathetic, isn't it? We know we are to evolve, and yet when it comes to certain issues (crucial & complex issues) we seem to remain infants, we do not move forward...it is sad *nodding*.
    I pray for and aspire to a better time, myself: I believe we can be better than this (after all we do have God's essence); I believe we will evolve to the highest rectitude and level of conscience (may not be in our life time, but it will happen).
    All we have to do is start working now for that future.

    "Maybe if we continue to inhabit the earth for several more eons, we will evolve..."

    LOL I hear you, Lynda!

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  20. Hey Mel :D!

    "Another great topic."

    Thank you, buddy *bowing*!

    "I'm afraid that the radical Muslim World cannot enter into a rational debate with anyone. They have grown up HATING the Western world, especially Israel. They are dogmatic in their thinking no matter how "insane" it may be."

    I must agree with you. True (and it is so obvious by the way they always manage to divert the question at hand to Israel and Palestine - clearly, as part of their anti-semitic campaign...it is so sad *nodding*). Indeed...

    "However, it IS up to the moderate Muslim world to take things into their own hands and deal with the radicals. If they don't, they will be caught up in the crossfire."

    I agree. But you know what? I think that the radicals have realised it: they know that the moderates will eventually be the ones putting their tasteless and criminal "show" to an end; and that is why they practically ridicule them (and, like one of the readers said, squawk. They squawk, because they don't want the audience to question their absurdities...it is all part of the diversion fear-based plan).

    "It is becomes both a moral and a rational question. Hypothetically, would you stand by and do nothing if your brother murders innocent people as you rationalize it by saying that "he is my brother and I must stand with him.""

    Again, I agree with you. No, I wouldn't allow my brother to murder innocent people...I would beat the bloody hell out of him until he'd stop!
    "He is my brother and I must stand with him" is not an acceptable argument (under both moral and rational points of view). So, the moderates must tell their radical brothers: STOP!!

    "The moderates have to develop a conscience and say "enough is enough!" If not, they risk being lumped into the same category as the radicals."

    Yes! Absolutely!! And that has been one of the complaints presented at Doha Debates...but unfortunately...the moderates do not present their arguments like they should (which could leads us to ask: are they in conflict with their beliefs and their lifestyle ambitions? Are they afraid that if they confront their radical brothers they'll be defying Mohummad's teachings? Are they confused?) *shrugging*.

    "This is very hard for the moderate Muslims, but they MUST choose "right" over "blood"."

    *Applause* yes, without any doubt!!

    Mel, thank you ever so much for this outstanding comment; I am in absolute awe *bowing*!

    Cheers

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  21. As you say, human beings have ingrained bias and conditioning. At the same time, it is believed that a gradual global awakening is underway. This means that people are becoming more aware of how they think and behave, as well as their underlying motivations. To break free from inclinations toward negativity, one can choose detach from emotions. As you learn to stay more present and alert, you realize emotions are some of the illusions you create to perpetuate a vicious circle. Violence, fear and hatred are key examples that can be dissolved just as they are created. Mental discipline is required and unwavering belief in what is possible. For example, the more a person discusses what he does not want, or what what bothers him, the more he feeds it energy and fuels the fire of illusion created.

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  22. Hey Liara!

    "At the same time, it is believed that a gradual global awakening is underway."

    I also believe in that.

    "To break free from inclinations toward negativity, one can choose detach from emotions. As you learn to stay more present and alert, you realize emotions are some of the illusions you create to perpetuate a vicious circle."

    I agree *bowing*!

    "Violence, fear and hatred are key examples that can be dissolved just as they are created. Mental discipline is required and unwavering belief in what is possible."

    Yes, yes...*nodding in agreement*....

    "For example, the more a person discusses what he does not want, or what what bothers him, the more he feeds it energy and fuels the fire of illusion created."

    Excellent example. It is like that person is feeding the energetic waves with his negativity (that later will become reality).

    I like this point of view; it is a more spiritual way of analysing this issue. Thank you *bowing*!

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  23. Hi! Daring to go where others fear to tread? Good on you and I second you on your valid comments.

    To speak against the Muslim faith in some countries is fraught with danger with radical Muslim extremists quick to threaten violence against those that do.

    Unfortunately the many moderate (free thinking) Muslims who do go out of their way to assimilate are tarred with the brush every time their extremist’s brothers carry out an atrocity or speak of carrying out acts of against those that welcome them into their country with open arms.

    This eye for an eye has to stop with promises of rewards in Paradise for martyrs being quashed by their leaders.

    But would they listen? Not an your Nelly! I ask, “What’s wrong with these people?”

    Of course the western world has its faults and shortcomings but at least we are working hard to overcome them.

    Imagine a world where Muslims and Non-Muslims lived together in peace and tranquility.

    Perhaps a pipe dream but one well worth looking into.

    Take Care,
    Peter

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  24. Excellent viewpoints Max as always.

    I was watching a special programme on Saudi Arabia and their schools the other night and the things, the mistruths they teach them, well no wonder they feel the way they do about us.

    It will be interesting to see if the change in American government and Obama's statement about us extending a hand if they are willing to unclench theirs will have a positive effect on relations or if they are so intent on hate without reason that nothing we can do will change the situation.

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  25. Hi Peter :D!

    "Daring to go where others fear to tread? Good on you and I second you on your valid comments."

    Yes, Pete...you know me! Thank you, mate!

    "To speak against the Muslim faith in some countries is fraught with danger with radical Muslim extremists quick to threaten violence against those that do."

    True and unfortunate at the same time. Criticism (when constructive) is a useful tool for development and evolution.

    "Unfortunately the many moderate (free thinking) Muslims who do go out of their way to assimilate are tarred with the brush every time their extremist’s brothers carry out an atrocity or speak of carrying out acts of against those that welcome them into their country with open arms."

    You are so right on this one!

    "This eye for an eye has to stop with promises of rewards in Paradise for martyrs being quashed by their leaders."

    BRAVO!!! *clap clap clap*...it really needs to stop!

    "I ask, “What’s wrong with these people?”"

    Victimisation, lack of ability to develop their nations, lack of vision; lack of respect for their women; fear that the moderates will denounce their radical and bankrupt philosophy; dread that they'll lose power (which they will); ignorance...that's what's wrong with these radicals.

    "Of course the western world has its faults and shortcomings but at least we are working hard to overcome them."

    Absolutely!

    "Imagine a world where Muslims and Non-Muslims lived together in peace and tranquility."

    I do imagine it...it is beautiful!! :D

    "Perhaps a pipe dream but one well worth looking into."

    Perhaps...but it is worthwhile dreaming of it!

    Peter, as always...an outstanding comment, for which I must thank you *bowing*! Always a pleasure!

    Cheers

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  26. Hello Bob :D!

    "Excellent viewpoints Max as always."

    Thank you for your kindness *bowing*!

    "I was watching a special programme on Saudi Arabia and their schools the other night and the things, the mistruths they teach them, well no wonder they feel the way they do about us."

    I know what you're talking about...it is all part of the manipulation, to lead those kids into decease (or even a political move so that they won't wish to have a society like ours) *nodding*!

    "It will be interesting to see if the change in American government and Obama's statement about us extending a hand if they are willing to unclench theirs will have a positive effect on relations or if they are so intent on hate without reason that nothing we can do will change the situation."

    I admit that I am anxious as well to see how the Muslim countries will react to President Obama's administration's efforts to reach an agreement: now they will be able to prove whether they really want peace or not.

    Lord of the Astropics, superb input...thank you so much *bowing*!

    Cheers :D

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  27. Max, you have spoken about the issue very well. Indeed all of us who survive to modern times are descendants of those who have both been victims and victimizers. Sorting out all of the accusations is beyond human understanding. It is hard enough to constructively look to the future without trying to right the wrongs of history starting from when the Trojans kidnapped Helen.

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  28. Max you tell them girl :'So I suggest the following: get over it, stop being belligerent, stop disrespecting your women, implement democracy and develop your nations (on every level).'

    I am not much into their politics, but I hear your girl, you nail everything for them to 'get over it'.

    Excellent thoughts.

    Anna :)

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  29. Hey Looney :D!

    "Max, you have spoken about the issue very well."

    Thank you so much *bowing*!

    "Indeed all of us who survive to modern times are descendants of those who have both been victims and victimizers."

    Yes, we have...all of us.

    "Sorting out all of the accusations is beyond human understanding. It is hard enough to constructively look to the future without trying to right the wrongs of history starting from when the Trojans kidnapped Helen."

    Can you imagine if we would dwell in the past and try to mend what was done since then? Where would we be?

    Looney, thank you so much for your most valuable input :D! I love hearing your opinion!

    Cheers

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  30. Hey Anna :D!

    LOL thanks for your support, girl! :D

    "Excellent thoughts."

    Thank you *bowing*!

    Anna, my dear friend, thank you so much for having dropped by and uttered words of support :D!

    Cheers

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  31. Maximus….

    I salute your tackling this topic with such luster and aplomb….although my dear I believe you have treated the Muslim world with velvet gloves…..

    ;)

    I would begin by addressing the supposedly Christian women that have converted to Islam….a genuine follower of Jesus is a forever follower. The Bible makes it clear that if a person claims to be a Christian and then denounces the faith etc they were never a genuine Jesus follower…

    When one considers the Quran and Haddith it becomes apparent that the real Muslims are not moderates or those who are simply giving a nod to their cultural identity. Muhammad is called the “Prophet of the Sword” and Islam does not mean “peace” I have dozens of pre-911 books written by Muslim scholars and ALL of them say Islam means “submission”…from the earliest times of Islam it has been expansionist, militaristic and imperialistic. This being said I welcome those who would choose to modify and water down Islam so that it is does not follow Muhammad, the Quran or Haddith….

    At this point I will interject that I believe there are actually not near as many true Muslims as are indicated in most numbers quoted and the same is true of genuine Jesus followers….there are many who claim to follow Islam or Jesus that are indeed not the real thing…

    As per the “humiliation” one must consider that the Quran makes it clear that Islam will dominate the world straight from its inception forward so for Islam to be shown up as crumbling to dust under the weight of its own heavy religion is intolerable to its true believers. Islam they believe must succeed if it is the true religion whereas in Christianity humility is often seen as the highest virtue the same cannot be said of the teachings of the Quran and Haddith….So when one considers this then it becomes apparent that Islam must be shown to seem “strong” and virile or it is then stripped raw naked in the market place of ideas to be shown as false as it is continually shown to be. For if Islam could grow besides thru rate of birth and violence that would show its real strength…Islam is after all an idea…I would argue that following Jesus is a relationship not an idea…however following Jesus is populated by awesome ideas such as grace…

    Islam strongly holds to “Allah’s will” as their belief system is fatalistic, more or less humans are Allah’s puppets. So if Islam is growing weaker then why is Allah choosing to do it? It is unacceptable for a real Islamic believer to accept this so they are inclined to “correct” the situation….

    So the West has humiliated them and so have many other cultures such as Japan and China…Their cultures are more powerful showing Islam to be impotent…When Muhammad was humiliated he went to war including against women and children…I am speaking history here not making statements of “hate”…I want to make it clear I love the Arab and Muslim people but not Islam…

    Largely (but not completely) the difference between Islam and the people groups you mention that have suffered atrocity is that Islam has on a vast scale been a perpetrator over extended periods of time.
    Read more on this if you like here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

    Indeed it is believed that the Arab/Muslim world took more African slaves than the Europeans (I am by no means supporting the European slave trade it was evil sin). Muslims are also believed to have taken over 1 million European slaves (See above link for more on this)….

    So as Islam is ground to dust by satellite TV, the internet, cell phones, literacy, education, lack of civil rights, religious rules, corruption, other much more dynamic creative freedom loving cultures etc. we must expect these kinds of evil sinful atrocities from the genuine Islamic believers. Hopefully the others who say they are Muslims will admit they are not really Muslims and we can move on as the real ones diminish in numbers over time….I think the real Muslims have been set back increasingly since the actions of 911…the dust piles up from the dieing Arabic Islamic Imperialism just as other forms of imperialism have depleted…

    I love the new look here gal…..

    ReplyDelete
  32. LSus :D!

    Hello!! How I missed you, man!!

    "I salute your tackling this topic with such luster and aplomb….although my dear I believe you have treated the Muslim world with velvet gloves….. ;)"

    Thank you so much *bowing*!
    LOL LS...you know that I love diplomacy above many things... ;)

    "I would begin by addressing the supposedly Christian women that have converted to Islam….a genuine follower of Jesus is a forever follower. The Bible makes it clear that if a person claims to be a Christian and then denounces the faith etc they were never a genuine Jesus follower…"

    So, you are suggesting that these converted women are lying when they say that they were former Christians?

    "When one considers the Quran and Haddith it becomes apparent that the real Muslims are not moderates or those who are simply giving a nod to their cultural identity. Muhammad is called the “Prophet of the Sword” and Islam does not mean “peace”"

    I heard the Imam of Lisbon saying that "Islam" means "peace"...was he lying to allure people to his religion, then?

    "I have dozens of pre-911 books written by Muslim scholars and ALL of them say Islam means “submission”…from the earliest times of Islam it has been expansionist, militaristic and imperialistic. This being said I welcome those who would choose to modify and water down Islam so that it is does not follow Muhammad, the Quran or Haddith…."

    "Submission"...that would make more sense. Because if it really meant "peace" why would these radicals reflect its antonym?
    True, true.
    I don't know if you have heard of the Muslim man (allegedly a moderate one) who beheaded his wife in the US...I read a blog article on it (http://roiword.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/creator-of-muslim-friendly-tv-channel-decapitates-wife/), where its author was asking "How a religion that conditionally sanctions male-on-female domestic violence can ever be properly squared with modern values of gender/sexual equality?" and I think that your words answer this question...this religion could only be properly squared with modern values (of any kind) if Islam would "modify and water down" itself.
    The Qu'ran should be reinterpreted, and taught that what is written there does not coadunate with modern times.

    "At this point I will interject that I believe there are actually not near as many true Muslims as are indicated in most numbers quoted and the same is true of genuine Jesus followers….there are many who claim to follow Islam or Jesus that are indeed not the real thing…"

    So, you think that when Muslims say that they are now 20% of the world religious community, it is not true?

    "As per the “humiliation” one must consider that the Quran makes it clear that Islam will dominate the world straight from its inception forward so for Islam to be shown up as crumbling to dust under the weight of its own heavy religion is intolerable to its true believers."

    Ok, but have you heard the speech of most Muslims that come on TV? They are always accusing us of humiliating them; and crying how humiliated they are and blah-blah-blah...are you saying that when they do this, they are once again proving that they are not real Muslims?

    "Islam they believe must succeed if it is the true religion whereas in Christianity humility is often seen as the highest virtue the same cannot be said of the teachings of the Quran and Haddith….So when one considers this then it becomes apparent that Islam must be shown to seem “strong” and virile or it is then stripped raw naked in the market place of ideas to be shown as false as it is continually shown to be. For if Islam could grow besides thru rate of birth and violence that would show its real strength…Islam is after all an idea…I would argue that following Jesus is a relationship not an idea…however following Jesus is populated by awesome ideas such as grace…"

    I see where you are coming from. I dare asking: do you think Islam is an utopia, LS?

    "Islam strongly holds to “Allah’s will” as their belief system is fatalistic, more or less humans are Allah’s puppets. So if Islam is growing weaker then why is Allah choosing to do it? It is unacceptable for a real Islamic believer to accept this so they are inclined to “correct” the situation…"

    But if they are fatalistic, don't you think that they should just accept Allah's will (in letting Islam growing weaker)?

    "So the West has humiliated them and so have many other cultures such as Japan and China…Their cultures are more powerful showing Islam to be impotent…When Muhammad was humiliated he went to war including against women and children…I am speaking history here not making statements of “hate”…I want to make it clear I love the Arab and Muslim people but not Islam…"

    We know a genuine follower of Jesus loves everybody. But you are discussing history here, it is written (so nobody can hold it against you).
    You are absolutely right: the West has been humiliated in all forms possible and yet...here it is - powerful, developed, modern! Westerners didn't focus on their past humiliations, instead they fought so that they wouldn't be humiliated again (this is grand). They didn't throw themselves in the sea of self-pity and victimisation that serves no tangible purpose (in terms of evolution and development).

    "Largely (but not completely) the difference between Islam and the people groups you mention that have suffered atrocity is that Islam has on a vast scale been a perpetrator over extended periods of time.
    Read more on this if you like here:"

    True, so true...
    This interesting link states that the Arab Slave Trade lasted until the 19th century which is not true. In fact, it lasts until today. They still use East Africans (children and women) as slaves. I am sure you know what I am talking about.

    "Indeed it is believed that the Arab/Muslim world took more African slaves than the Europeans (I am by no means supporting the European slave trade it was evil sin). Muslims are also believed to have taken over 1 million European slaves (See above link for more on this)…."

    Indeed...

    "So as Islam is ground to dust by satellite TV, the internet, cell phones, literacy, education, lack of civil rights, religious rules, corruption, other much more dynamic creative freedom loving cultures etc. we must expect these kinds of evil sinful atrocities from the genuine Islamic believers."

    I see what you mean, my brother...

    "Hopefully the others who say they are Muslims will admit they are not really Muslims and we can move on as the real ones diminish in numbers over time….I think the real Muslims have been set back increasingly since the actions of 911…the dust piles up from the dieing Arabic Islamic Imperialism just as other forms of imperialism have depleted…"

    I agree with you.

    "I love the new look here gal….."

    Why, thank you, darling :D!!

    LSus, what a superb comment...I looked like an avid student in a classroom: thank you! I admire your knowledge and wisdom *bowing*!

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete

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